Episode 86: Knowing Your Songwriter Rights

Jul 12, 2023

Episode 86: Knowing Your Songwriter Rights 

 

Songwriters often overlook the topic of songwriter rights. One, because it can get really confusing, two, because they'd rather spend time creating than doing administrative tasks.

In this episode, we have a special guest and old friend, Entertainment Lawyer Megan Pekar, who will shed light on the legal aspects that songwriters need to know and why it's important.

Starting with Megan's personal experience of transplanting to the vibrant city of Nashville, this episode explores questions you may have never considered.

Have you ever wondered what rights you, as a songwriter, actually possess? What is a PRO, and should you sign up for one? Do you own your publishing, masters, and mechanical licensing? How do you know for sure? And how do you get your co-writers to talk about rights without being awkward?

Don't worry if these questions seem overwhelming right now. Megan will help demystify this complex landscape and empower you with knowledge about your rights as a creator.

 

Listen here

Or read the ai generated transcription below...

 

Mike Meiers 0:00
Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the Songwriting for Guitar Podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career that you love.

Unknown Speaker 0:22
Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Speaker 1 0:33
Hey friends, Mike Meiers here with the songwriting for guitar podcast episode number 86. Knowing your song writer writes with Megan Pekar, Esquire, now this episode is super special for me because I've known Megan for an insanely long time, like 14 years. I remember when she was just a teenager, she was starting to run shows she was putting on shows in her hometown that my band played, she had this desire to get into the music industry, I Sark at Belmont, you know, she has just grown into an amazing person. But then entertainment law, then she got a law degree and this episode, we're gonna talk about your rights. There's a ton of logistics, there's so much law behind this that songwriters don't know. And we're gonna dive into just some of this. I mean, we're gonna have to have another episode because we barely scratched the surface. But there's so much info in this episode, that if you're a songwriter, producer, that's like, man, the last side of that I kinda know. But I don't really, you need to listen to this. Even if you think you know, you need to listen to this, you need to hear from an expert. And that's what Magennis so I'm really excited. Are we going to talk about some 2009 scene stuff as well? Of course we are because we're gonna dive into all of that. So here we go. Episode 86 with Megan Patkar, Esquire.

Mike Meiers 2:02
Megan, this is exciting for me. I'm not gonna lie. This is very exciting. Because the backstory, you're an entertainment lawyer, you live in Nashville. And I want to get into all that. But how we know each other, I think is just like, it's like 14 years, which is like it doesn't feel like 14 years. No, not at all. And it's like, and also to the scenario in which I met you. I'm like, it's kind of funny, because now that I say it, I'm like, because I was explained to Heather, she was like, Well, how do you know Megan? I was like, well, she organized shows that we, you know that we used to play my band. She was like, Oh, that's great. How do you how do you connect? And I was like, Well, remember Hannah Montana? Well, she had a friend on the show that was played by Emily Osman. And as Hannah's career was taking off, and we adminstered do music, and then she had and so we played with two bands that were kind of like Radio Disney bands. Right? And she was like, Really?

Yes. But you were at that show. And it was from like, 2009 you were running? Weren't you're running the merch table. Yeah, I had been pushed plays street team at the time. And so they had just asked, like, Hey, show, we need someone to help sell merch. And I was like, might as well hey, Mom, Dad, can we get down to Pittsburgh for the day? And can I help this band sell merch? And my parents agreed. Just the phrase Street Team streets. Yeah, I'm just like, Man that feels like such a nostalgic phrase. Because that was a very big thing for bands to connect with fans, but also like super fans that were willing to do things like that you could reach out and be like, hey, right. Do you want to work the merch table, which is the most unappealing part? Because like, as a band, the merch table is like, oh, organizing shirts, but to like, it was probably Yeah, sure. Yep. As a high schooler, who was like, I'll do anything to like, be part of the music industry. So did you always want to do that, like some facet of music in the music industry? Yeah, I think probably starting like sixth grade, I got really into the Jonas Brothers and other Radio Disney band. And I was just so fascinated about the backstage and behind the scenes aspect of it that I just kind of clicked into wanting to do something, some happy music, no matter kind of what that looks like. And I just remember, we played the show. And then afterwards, we talked and you were like, oh, yeah, you know, you know, I would love for you guys to play, you know, and we were like, Oh, where do you live? And it wasn't far from Pittsburgh. It was like, you know, to me, it was like a pretty short drive. And you were like, for sure. And we were like, sure, we had very little kind of like, we didn't assume what it was going to be like, but it ended up being the most organized. Well, like, you know, orchestrated show and we always would talk about like, Man, I can answer shit together. Like other promoters. We have some times they're just you show up and they're like,

Yeah, yeah. It was just like always organized. And we played, you know, a bunch of shows that you did. And to me, it was like, Oh, you're not, this isn't just like something that you do on the side, this is something you want to do more like you're really interested in expanding and getting further into the music industry in some facet. Yeah, I think I realized pretty early on that. Even though I was in a super small town of 7000 people that didn't have its own music industry scene, I knew that I wanted to be involved in I knew that it wasn't gonna come to me, I had to bring it somehow. And so that is why I was like, well, we'll start playing the shows and then started quote, unquote, managing friends bands, but didn't do anything, really. But it's just a good way to kind of get into that a little bit. And I remember when you told me,

cuz I remember playing your graduation. Yeah, if you are like, I'm going to Nashville. I'm going to Belmont. And, uh, you know, I only knew a little bit about Belmont. Because every time that we play in Nashville, I was like, oh, that's, that's pretty good school for music, and entertainment law. Why entertainment law? Yeah, I think, you know, is a very windy way to get there. Because I went to the mosque full on thinking, Okay, I'm gonna be a tour photographer, slash tour manager, go on Warped Tour, do that whole thing. And then, by the time I got to school, I was like, that's not the life I want. And so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna work in music publishing, it was something I'd never heard of before I went about, didn't realize, you know, how much of a community songwriting is. I can't write songs, but I was like, I've got to find a way that I can be a part of this. And so I started working in publishing, doing copyright administration. So copyright registrations, dealing with the the Bureau's doing mechanical licensing, all that kind of behind the scenes side of that, and really just went from there. I was working at a company and I was there part time and then waiting tables part time and just decided, you know, I kind of want more. So what's that next step look like? And decided to take the LSAT and see what happened, and then got my score back then, like, Alright, I'm just gonna apply to law school, see what happened, plied to Beaumont, because it was the most logical place knowing that I still wanted to work in music and entertainment. And then when I got my acceptance that I was like, Alright, this is it, I'm doing it. But it was definitely kind of, I'm just gonna see where things go. And now that I'm, you know, three years into my career, best decision I've read. I mean, even just on the front end of that, with some of the things that you were dealing with in publishing the mechanical license, all of that, especially since I do sync, it's always like, when I do a cover, and it's like, mechanical, all that backend stuff is so it's insanely important. But I feel like sometimes a lot of the legal side and those things songwriters just don't want to think about or like, or they don't think about, right, until they need to. Yes. No, it's not glamorous. And I it's not necessarily fun, but I love it. And yeah, it is really important. It's just something that takes kind of a different mindset. And so yes, very important piece. But I also understand, not at the forefront of Osama murderers mind. Since you said mindset. What do you think that mindset is, he always think about the divide between business and songwriting, which sometimes they enter twine, and a lot of times, but then you have the super creative person who is like, I don't want to think about that at all. That's why I want people to think about it. But then there are certain people who are great at doing both and can handle thinking about both sets of things that need to be done. Yeah, I don't know. No, I think that you touched on right there, that mindset piece where there are those that are just like, I just want to be creative. And it's like, I understand that that's important. But if you want to make, as soon as you enter money into the equation, there's a set of rules that you have to abide by. And you have to know this. Even if you have an entertainment law, or even if you are consulting with people, you still have to be aware of this because in the nicest way, those that aren't aware, you can't claim ignorance. Incredibly, I just didn't know, I just didn't know. You have to be aware of some of these things, because they're insanely important. There's a reason why they're in place. It's so true. And I think that kind of gets overlooked sometimes because like you said, people are like, I just don't want to think about it. Now, you know, I'd be curious about this. What are mistakes that artists make that they end up needing a lawyer end up needing someone like you to be like, Oh, shit, Megan, I may have made a mess of this. Yeah.

The first time you need a lawyer is when you have a piece of paper in front of you.

And so I think that if you go and you know, don't understand what you're signing, I think that's probably the biggest mistake that people make. They're like, Oh, you know, this deal came to me. And it looks great on paper. And I really liked the people that were super nice. And so let's just go ahead and sign it and get it papered. And I'll we'll figure it out later, without really thinking about what that means. And the consequences of that, if there's something in there that, you know, they don't understand or might catch them trip them up, is it because they,

because they want it so bad, like they've been dreaming about this opportunity? And then the first opportunity comes to them? And they're just like, oh, this is it, because they're worried they're just this is it, this is the only opportunity. And a little bit, they kind of read it. But then there are all these other things that in the short term, they just want it. But long term, they're not thinking about, like, is this the best deal? Is this going to benefit me long term? Is it better? If I just say no, and just wait, right? I think it can be I think that's a big piece of it. I also think that, you know, there's always been kind of this, like, even just thing about publishing deals, like a lot of the attitude traditionally has been, okay, your first hub deal. You're giving up all of your publishing, you get your writer share. But you know, we're taking all of your publishing. And I think we're slowly moving away from that a little bit more as more than publishing companies more opportunities. But I do think that it's something like that, where it's like, well, this is the opportunity that I have, so I have to take it. And so just trying to take a step back, and also looking to people for advice and saying, Does this make sense for me to do? Or do I try to negotiate what what does that look like? Yeah, it seems like it is good to just hit the pause button, not answer, but consult someone like you and be like, Hey, could you explain it in a way that like, if I sign this paper, what does that mean? Because, you know, sometimes contracts are many pages. And it's because there are many different scenarios the company is protecting, they want to make sure, but at the same time trying to get the gist or the idea of like,

so how long am I committed to this? Right? Do I have a way out? Do I have like any of that? It seems like consulting someone like you is what people should do, especially if they're in that position where they're just not quite sure, right? I think people also think, Oh, I'm gonna have to pay a ton of money for a lawyer, which I understand I can't seem like that. But also, we all know that there's a lot of progress that has to be made. And just as your know, your investment and hiring an attorney, is something that's long term, because we're the ones who are going to help you and protect you and work with you through every step of your career, if you let us. What are some scenarios in which Yeah, I think that's one publishing, you know, maybe you get a contract. But what are scenarios where an artist should seriously think songwriters should think about like, I should consult an entertainment lawyer. Before I get into this? Like I said, I think anytime you have a piece of paper in front of you, that someone has given to you, I think that's the time to talk to a lawyer.

Okay, so, no, that makes sense. Because, you know, part of us, maybe it's also fruitfulness in us as sort of being like, oh, you know, I kind of you know, I looked at a YouTube video, I watched a couple. But there's a difference between a YouTube video and someone who spent, you know, several years studying the law, studying examples. Going into practice, seeing many different takes getting quick, really, you can't get the same from like, a 10 or 15 minute YouTube video from someone be like, Oh, I'll save myself, you know, just some money. Because long term, it seems like it's the word like, you're actually you're gonna lose a lot more. Right. But I think the long term and I think that's kind of the short sightedness of not looking at the long term, but just try and say okay, this is what's good for me right now. And not having someone to help you see what that vision is, is where things get a little bit messy. Now, that's something I feel like you like, you know, if we were to go to your journey from like, you know, cars all the way like you always had a, I feel really good, long term vision of like, you're very patient. You're willing to pivot to and make

changes along the way. But it always like was your end goal? Was that always just your characteristic of just like that sort of drive and determination to just like, yep, just forge ahead. Just keep on going? I think so I think if I put my mind to it, I was just like, it's not going to change it. I think music from you know, a very young age has been such a core part of who I am that I wanted my life to be around it. And the fact that I'm still doing what I set out to do is incredible. How was it to go from, you know, because people listening or like I'm in, you know, a small town, what was it like to go from that to suddenly? Boom, you're in Nashville? Yeah. It's like, Here you go. Oh, man. Scary. Confusing. Yeah, yeah. But also absolutely incredible. Just because it every day, I felt like I was living out what I was meant to do. But I think that there's definitely this overwhelming sense of 1am I going to make it because there's so many people here in our class in the graduating class before us and below us that are trying to do the same thing. And so trying to find your own path, while everyone else is trying to find their own path is a little bit overwhelming at times. I think that's even true when I made the jump to go into law school, because there's so few entertainment law jobs, that everyone's like, Oh, it's so hard to get a job in entertainment law. And I was like, well, that's really the only thing I want to do. So I gotta find a way to make it happen. It's interesting, because I don't know when the first time you came natural, like I remember the first time I and it was like, even years before like the other band, like it was just another band. And I was like, Yeah, I really liked Nashville. I was like, I could live here. I had no idea about the city or anything. I just like, Oh, I'm like the owner. I'm like, Yeah, I can live here. It's fine. Now we live here, right? But did you get that feeling of like, oh, this is a place that I'll stay even beyond? Like, I'll be here. Yeah, I think the first time that I came here, it felt very small town and a big city. And I think that's what's really kept me in Nashville is because I even going to networking events and different things that almost always run into someone, because this town is so small. And so it still I feel like that was an easier transition than if I'd gone to New York or LA because I kind of had that sense of home. From the minute I came down here. It is kind of nice about Nashville where you can be in the city and then go like 15 minutes away. And you're completely Yes, like away from the city.

It is. But to me, it's funny that you mentioned when you were going into entertainment law, you know, people, there's not a lot, I always find it when people try to advise. And I'm like, Cool. Are you doing the thing? Well, no, but let me tell you about it. And it's like, well, wait a minute, why are you telling me about the thing that I want to do that you don't do? But you're claiming like this expert knowledge of like, the thing? You have no idea. So I want to do it? Why not do it? I feel like a lot of people stop it there because they're surrounded by people that are giving out advice, whether it from the heart or just like from their ass. I don't know. It's just like just randomly, but they have no foundational knowledge of the craft or the thing, but they're just spouting advice. Well, and that was the hard part too, was because the people that I was asking about and talking to about it were ones that weren't doing. And we're one of the few that like had done it. And we're basically like, you know, there's not a lot of jobs like

just almost like a not a warning, but just a, you know, heads up. But they're not you. Yeah, that's true. That's the thing too. It's just like, that's what, I don't know, I just thought more and more about this of, yeah, there's few entertainment lawyer job, but like, there's only one Megan and there's only like, her perspective, her knowledge and her experience of everything that she's experienced. No one has. Oh, no. And maybe that's also the thing that I've always told myself to in moments, because it seems like all the scenarios you mentioned, are so uncomfortable. It's pushing yourself to the realm of like, I've never been here. You're gonna make myself a little uncomfortable. Cool. I finally graduated. I'm done. Cool. You know what I'm gonna do to make myself even more uncomfortable, and I'm gonna go even further. But it's just like, here we are. And you're like, I'm doing this thing. And I love it. Like, this is what I wanted to do. It's it's a shame how many people didn't do get uncomfortable, listen to people and just stopped right and they're equally as unhappy.

and they're just like, If only I had just like maybe stayed with, I wonder what would have happened? Well, if it means it didn't work out right away, but you had to like, work your butt off or do a little. I just it just so it's so bizarre to me a little bit, right? What is it? Grace only happens when you're uncomfortable? Pretty much. Yeah, it's I think David Bowie says like when your feet is not touching the ground, that's when you know you're doing the thing you should be. Because, you know, I grew up, you know, it wasn't far from where your hometown was. But it's like, I think it's it's a sweet city, but it was rated the most livable. It's one of those days where I feel like yeah, I can do, you can live comfortably doing not a lot, right. And it was just like, I don't like that feeling. And I saw a lot of people that would go to Nashville, and they'd be like, come back a week later, you know, a year later and be like, it's a tough town. And it's like, yeah, but it was just a year, you didn't even give it a try. Right? What was your plan? didn't have one. Okay, who did you meet? Nobody.

They say always say Nashville as a 10 year town. And even if people seemingly blow up overnight, you don't know maybe they've been writing songs for four years before they became an artist and then started working towards that. And I think that's kind of an overlooked piece. But I feel like it truly is attending your town a lot of the time.

Hey, it's Mike. I'm jumping in the middle of this episode, to remind you that if you've been listening to this podcast, you've been enjoying these episodes weekly. But you haven't left us a review on Apple podcasts. Can you do that right now, especially if you're listening to this episode, on Apple podcasts, you just need to scroll down, you can leave us a five star review, talk about your favorite episode. And if you want to go over and above, share this with a songwriting friend, post this on your favorite social media platform share this knowledge, we do our best to bring awareness to the podcast, but every little bit helps. So leave us a review on Apple podcasts, and then share this episode with a friend. All right, let's dive back into the episode.

I think sometimes when somebody you know, looks like they've blown up overnight, you don't see that backlog of work. Like you know, everybody goes like, oh, Taylor Swift. You know, she just blew up overnight. It's like, Are you kidding me? She didn't blow up overnight, she came into Nashville, she worked a whole bunch of studios, she wrote a whole bunch and work for a really long time.

And then things started to happen. It's you can't wave a magic wand and write.

It's not a thing. Yes. Now, if a songwriter is listening to this, and they're like, What rights do I have? You know, what rights do I have as a songwriter? And yeah, what would they be? If they're brand new to this? And they're like, how should I protect? What should I do? What do I What should I know is actually mine. But meanwhile, I'm just like signing things and giving everything away. Take me back to basics. With music, there's really two copyrights, there's the underlying composition. So that's the music and the lyrics. And then there's a sound recording copyright that's wholly separate. And so that's going to be the final recorded master. And so two different copyrights, typically two different rights holders, the songwriter is going to be the owner of the the composition, and then the artist, record label, producer, depending on what kind of deal they're in, but will own the sound recording copyright. And so on the songwriting side to really focus on the composition itself, the music, lyrics, everything like that. And so, one of the great things about copyright law now is that you don't have to do any registration to be protected, that as soon as it's fixed into a tangible medium, good to go, you technically have registration or technically protected. Registration comes more into play when you offer someone suing you and you're trying to, or you're trying to sue someone else for copyright infringement. That's when registration can be a little bit more helpful because you can get certain damages if it's registered within a certain time. But as soon as you you know, record a demo, or create a work tape right down there, the minute they're fixed, you're protected. And so at that point, there's not much you need to do but there are I'm gonna probably not do my copyright law professors proud right now, but I think it's six rights and the bundles copyrights.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
cuz

Mike Meiers 25:01
there's so much to know. And it's just like you're going off the top your head. It's just like, meanwhile, I'm lucky if I can walk and chew gum and kind of do something. You're thinking of all these all these important rights. And yeah, there's so.

So just to kind of break down some of them, you've got your public performance, right. And so that is going to be handled by ASCAP, BMI CSAT, GMR, ASCAP, and BMI, both, except everyone. And so you can just sign up, they have a lot of resources that can help you get started and meet people and do different things. And so what they pay out on is anytime it's played, either on radio or TV, or even a live show, there are public performance royalties that get paid on that. Yeah. And so making sure your works are registered properly. And one of the PRS is a big thing. Some of the other rights. And I guess now more I think about rights in terms of sources of income, more so than Yeah, like the technical bundle of rights. So then you got mechanical royalties. So anytime that's played on, or put onto a CD, or, and now that includes streaming as well, mechanical streaming, which is a whole nother interesting craziness.

And then you have synchronization. So sync licenses, whenever it's in a film, TV, commercial, anything with a video?

It's that's the one Yeah, that's the one is my huge income stream. That's right. And that great thing about that is, it's so negotiated, like mechanical licenses, you get, I guess they've just bumped it from 9.1 cents to 12 cents, but per copy sold. And so the fact that sync is such a open range, and so many factors, and so highly negotiable is a headache, but also a great thing because it can become such a great source of income.

If you're right, because it's just changed dramatically, even the past five years that it's just like it's transformed, right? So many different ways of synchronization. But you're right at the same time, it can be a headache, because it's just like, they're all a little bit different. They're not all this measured the same, right? Have you noticed there been more like opportunities? First thing? Or, you know, honestly, yeah, because I've seen more opportunities, especially when you start to get your foot in to licensing. And you even go beyond your country. Like if you move beyond just the US, but you start going into like Australia, I've done a ton for Australia, which is great. But yeah, it's I've noticed in the past there, I'd say a year or two way more opportunities, because it's so diversified, the streaming services, type of ads, there's, you know, you know, ads for TV, but then there's web only ads, and that's a little bit different. And then there's podcasts, and then there's YouTube. And it's just like, there's so many different, I can lose track. And I'm like, Well, what kind of commercial is this? And then it's like, well, we don't know, and then we'll find out and this will get placed in Australia. But I only get I only get this I don't get enough for free I get back in royalties. But then this one, this is for Netflix, and I get an upfront fee. And it's it can be so even just talking about this, I'm like, How do you do this with? You're not even just dealing with justice? It's every all this copyright. Right? How much to it? Yeah, it's there's so much to it, and so many different pieces, and things are changing all the time. So

fun to keep up with those definitely a lot and I can understand for a young time, or they're coming and being like, I don't know what any of this means. But also how important it is to, to know at least a little bit.

How, how do you keep up with it? Because I feel like it is changing? Um, that's a good question.

I think just trying to read articles and try to

we have a really good law group at our firm that's kind of New York, LA and Nashville base. And so yeah, he share a lot of information on a constant basis to just try and keep up with things because it's never the same and it's always moving and it's always moving target with that even though it's you know, same company you guys are communicating to me it's like letting a songwriter know you want to gain more knowledge network with other songwriters build that network up because that line of communication is a valuable resource of knowledge. So you're not in the dark that you're, you know, starting to become aware with other songwriters as opposed to kind of sailing solo. Right, and just kind of hoping things will work out. Yes. Agreed. If somebody's listening to this, and so, you know, and they're like, well, where should I go? I think the best advice you would give is, you know, just sign up for if you do not have and I can't tell how many times like you know, especially for licensed

When someone's like, I'm like, What's your publisher? I don't have a publisher or so you're independent. No, I'm not Sunday. I went okay. Do you have a public? Did you can sign up via ASCAP? I don't need that. Right. You're kind of leaving money on the table. Yes. Because it just kind of sits there in, I guess, like money space. Yeah. unclaimed, because it goes nowhere. They have to send it but they don't know where to send it. Yep. On a black box somewhere. I guess the big thing is, you know, signing up for your pros. But I think the other thing is, if you have a legal document, you're unsure, like, for instance, you know, what about for producers? Because I know, we have producers that listen to this, you know, and they do work for hires, how do they protect themselves to not just songwriters, but like a producer? Yeah, I think having a lawyer look at your producer agreement before they sign it and just make sure that there's everything covered would be my number one thing. I love the fact that you said have a producer's agreement, because half of them are like, Oh, should I need a producer's agreement? What should What should I have in there? Yeah. And it's just like, as opposed to just like, Let me shake your hand. Right? Agree? Yes, then I would say have a producer agreement would be step one. No, it's true. Because I feel like when I've done stuff that somebody's paying for me, I'm like, Cool. This is, you know, are we splitting the master? am I sharing the master? Or am I going to pay you completely for ownership? And a lot of them are like, what's that? Right? And I'm like, Oh, you don't really? Like how many deals have you negotiated? Where you didn't know that was the thing. And you've been pitching the song thinking, like, I own all of it. But meanwhile, it's like, Do you own the master? Right? They're like, I think I do. But it's not specified at all. I think that's the other thing. I feel like there's a lot of things that we want to be kind and nice, but we have to get things in writing, like, really get specific, because it's a business and not just like, hey, we're hanging out. We're friends, I trust you. Yeah, that's not gonna work in court.

He was my friend that I trust.

And it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be a single piece of paper, just saying we agree to split ownership 5050 Like, and just setting out everything in simple terms, just so that everyone is clear, so that you're not, you know, four months down the road going? Well, I didn't think I had to pay.

I think that's a huge thing, especially like work for hires. Like if you hire outside musicians get something around that just says they played, they don't own anything. And that's it. It's beautiful. So that if something ever did happen, and they use that that's I've heard of one instance, where there was, I was in a course for licensing where they hired someone, they got it placed, they didn't get anything in writing. And then that person came back and was like, Hey, you owe me a cut. And it's like, not only did they pay them upfront, but they just didn't get anything. And then they had to pay because if they didn't, then that person would complain. And then supervisor would be like, What the hell in the music and cause you can burn so many bridges? with not having just, as you said something very simple. Yeah, doesn't have to be complicated language, but just clear signs so that it's really protecting yourself, right? I think the clearer you can be from the outset, is going to help everyone and like you said, the burning bridges is spot on, because that's what you want to avoid down the road. Because even if you're best friends now, what happens? Three years from now with the song takes off, and all of a sudden, that person isn't speaking to you. And you've got to figure out what each person owns and who owes each other what. So the more you have done on the front end for anything, producer artists, anything, the more you can have done on the front end will save so much in the back end. People just feel awkward having those conversations and I'm not sure why. Yeah, again, is it just money? Is it really is it just the thing where it's like, it's the business side? I don't want to I don't want to cloud this in business. But as soon as you just want to make money. I'm sorry, this is a it's a business. Right? How do you think songwriters, and artists can get over that hurdle? Just a little bit, I guess, because it's really a mindset hurdle, right? It's just really just ingrained in their mind that like, Oh, that's a bad thing. I don't want to talk about that. Why? I haven't really thought about it. But the more we talked about, I'm blanking. So many people do have that kind of mental hurdle. And I don't know if it's just we don't want to be uncomfortable. I think you can do everything in a way that isn't gonna burn bridges. Like from the front end, like if you just say, Hey, I just want to make sure that I'm clear and that we're on the same page so that we don't have issues down the road that kind of can skip over some of the awkwardness maybe. And also, maybe it's not going to be awkward. You just think it's going to so um

I was gonna say it's gonna be that second one in our mind, we think it's the worst case scenario that the songwriter is gonna be like, No, it's like, how dare you bring this up? But it's like, if they're serious about it, too. They're thinking the same thing. And they're thinking, oh, oh, cool. They brought it up. Great. And there we go. And as you said, just like that piece of paper, it can be a simple conversation of like, Hey, I just want to protect us both. I think it also helps, yeah, to like, flip it around. And like, when you're in that moment, just be like, Well, if that person said this to me, would I be horribly offended? Oh, no, you wouldn't be you'd be like, exactly. And yet, we're just like, we think they're going to, you know, walk out and be like, So and so asked me to sign this, right. Any reasonable person that's doing this would be like, Yeah, okay. Okay. Perfect.

And to me, it's, you're protecting yourself. If someone throws like a really like, hissy fit, or whatever, tantrum Great. Aren't you glad you didn't do anything with that person? Or build anything with that person only then to not be able to do anything? Right? Yes, it's helping them but it's protecting yourself. Yes, Megan, this was so good. Because I think you've cleared up a lot of things that this area of music for songwriters is so they know it's important, but it's just like this mysterious world of like, you know, the the curtain to just like, go back and be like, so it's like, what do I need? Again? I'll type into Google, what do I need question mark, and you get inundated. But hearing just like, here are the basic things you can concern yourself with and just focus on right, I think helps everyone breathe. Hopefully he's here. But also know like, okay, cool. That's what I need to do. If you can know that one thing. It moves you a little further down the path. And I think too, and we talked about the pros, but some other kind of organizations to kind of jump in as young songwriters or not even young, but just new songwriters, the AIMP, the association of independent music publishers, they do a lot of networking, and they do a lot of programming, trying to help independent publishers and songwriters succeed and get along. And then the NSI Nashville Songwriters. Yes, yeah, it's also another one to get involved. I completely agree, I think because it's also surround yourself with people that are taking it seriously to they're like wanting to make that jump. And I think if you can kind of then elevate who you're around the information, the quality of information you get is a little bit better to a grade. Well, again, this was awesome. Thank you for hanging out. This is so much fun. This was this was so good. And we'll have you back because there's this we barely scratched the surface. I feel there's a lot more. Yes.

And that does it for this week's episode. It was edited and produced by Chris values. I'm Mike Myers. Thanks for listening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai