Ep 106: Putting in the Work Part II

One choice can change everything - the decision that you make all comes down to willingness. Willingness to put in the work is the beginning and end to your songwriting woes. What will you miss out on by trying? Absolutely nothing. 

Returning guest Josh Doyle and Mike Meiers argue that every bit of effort you give is worth your time because it’s all on a path to discovering your process and uncovering the ease of creating. 

What will you gain if you get expert advice? Find out for yourself. 

Don’t miss the chance to get a song critique from SFG Coach Josh Doyle, someone who put in the work and came out with six figure songs.

Visit https://www.songwritingforguitar.com/critiques to book at a special price.

Transcript:

Hey, I'm Mike Myers and this is the song rank for guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career. You love caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.
Hey, friends, Mike Myers here with the song rank for guitar Podcast, episode 106. Part two of putting in the work. So here's the thing, if you miss part one, this is where I would hit pause and just go back in episode. Listen that first part, and then listen to this one. But if you've already listened, guess what? Here we go. We're jumping into it. Because let me ask you this. What will you miss out on if you put in the work? Just think about that for a second. What could you possibly miss out on if you put in the work? Absolutely nothing seriously, zero, there is no downside. One choice honestly can change everything. The decision comes down to willingness. The willingness to put in the work is honestly the beginning and the end of the songwriting woes, all that lamenting comes to a halt once you make the decision to jump in, and start participating to start developing your craft and putting in the work. And for part two, I got Josh Doyle again we are diving into a Josh is of course good friend of mine mentor and a coach here at songwriting for guitar. So here we go. Episode 106, part two, of putting in the work.
I have now what you told me, when you were saying write a lot of great songs and like just focus on the analyzing the dissecting and then doing even more of a deep dive. Because you said if you get something placed or you have someone interested in, that's great. They're then going to be like, what else do you have, you don't want to have one or two, like, possibly great songs, and then a load of shit, or a load of just like mediocre things. And as you said, in an industry where you're up against people that have been doing lots of great things, you want to have equally, if not a little bit better than those things. Because that's also your portfolio and almost like your calling card. And you don't want your calling card to be like, oh, yeah, their stuff is kind of good. But then there's a lot of ones that Miss,
right? You don't want that reputation.
You want it to be like, oh, you know what they really do put in thought of like the sounds and and that is a great like that this one was really catchy by listen to this one. And I was like, wow, that quality is essentially one main characteristic. And if you're trying to get around that, it will never happen. And you'll always wonder why. But you know, that's the thing, too, part of you knows the answer is just I know. And that's the thing. It's not like a crazy, you know, we're saying like you need to do XYZ, it's like, no, you actually just need to carve out that time. And that time might be year, it might be two years of just really writing and developing, writing with people that you do some co writes that don't own up well, and then you do some co writes start to do and then you start to form some people, you start to connect with others, and you start to stay consistent with it and you're developing and finding out. You have to build that. And if you're trying to get around that with other things. I've never seen it work. Yeah,
man, you touched on something that I kind of forgot about that was like a big lesson for me is that little voice in your gut or in the back of your head that when you know something isn't right, and it still needs more work. Man, there were so many times where I just kind of like I think it's good enough, nobody's gonna notice that, that flat note that I go that goes into the course or whatever, I think yeah, that's, uh, what does, it's got. It's got vibe, you know? Like, I can make it, I can call it something else. It's a stylistic choice. But really, man, every time that I pitched that song, that was what really got me is that you can't just be done with it, put it on a shelf and never have to listen to it again. It's like one of those songs is like, Oh, if I'm going to pitch this, I gotta listen to it again. Ah, I regret that choice. You know, and that just gets me every time. So I try to Yeah, to take you know, put in the work, do the do the hard thing. Rewrite that pre chorus if it needs to be done, even though the production is almost done. Like those are tough lessons. Yeah,
those are in credibly tough lessons. What I think is also a great characteristic of putting in the work. One thing you'll gain is when you hear something that isn't right what you're describing and like, it's something that you know, needs addressing, like, it's not something that it's like, you're gonna be like, ah, the way that you you deal with it is so different because those that hear that for the first time go through the spiral of like, this is, you know, it's just like kind of like, it's the doomsday scenario where I feel the person that's growing goes like, Okay, so next time I have to remember, check data, or oh, you know what? I didn't throw a compressor on that acoustic. And so no wonder I'm getting all these creaking sounds, I need to remember next time, when I track just throw it on. Listen, is there any kind of weird background noise? If it is everything set up? I can retract it again really quickly. It's going to be so much easier. There we go. Yeah,
I mean, exactly those types of things. I've got a co writer, session guy that I work with. And I love him. Great, great instrumentalists love recording with him. But man, he taps his foot every single time that we go to track anything. And so I've actually I went and got like this really thick rug that I can kind of put under his feet.
Because of sickness, if people are listening, he went was just like this giant man, I'm just imagining Oh, shit, but it's those, those are the things that you're going to miss out and putting in the work because you can view it two ways. Either it is the worst thing ever, or you've now gained new insight into and things that are going to save you time. And you're starting to develop your ease, I guess quote unquote, ease Yeah, of writing. Because had you not done this you wouldn't have known if you don't wouldn't have known you would have continued to make the same mistake,
man that I love that you just said that like discovering your ease, like the reason that it now looks easy, or that we can do it quickly, is because of all of that. All all those mistakes, like all the work that we put in and having to redo it and, you know, paying attention to our intuition. I love that you finding the ease? Yeah, that's yeah, the
image I get, I don't know. I'm for some reason. I just like Gordon Ramsay, like the I love kids. I really do. It's just like, and it's just because he has such standards for what needs to be. Well run. And he can tell you why and walk you through all the things that need to happen. But I love this video. It's like it's an early footage of him being an apprentice to it, like literally just doing quote unquote, if you will all a pitch work for the chef like going and doing and cutting and listening and being like, Oh, yes, Chef. Yes. So all the things that he's he's expecting of the ones that are coming to him, whether it's like Hell's Kitchen or something. It's because he's been at that level and his developing and his ease and his standards. It's like you see oh, you put in that work? That was you doing all that? It's a crazy. It's crazy footage where he doesn't say a word. All he says is Yes, Chef. Right away, Chef? Yes. Yeah. And it's him just like babyface Gordon just looking like you know, all all like, you know, young. But it's like, oh, that was you. Learning about how to properly run a restaurant and a kitchen and understand what it takes. So now when you see him to man, it's like I get where you get your authority. And just like you're not because like, I can go back to this video. You didn't put up like a hissy fit. Like where you see some people who go like, I don't want to put up with this. You can't tell me? No, he was just quiet. And it was just Yes. Yes, Chef. And I'm like, wow, I was like, that's him putting in the work is apprenticeships and all those things that you don't see. Right now. It's, oh, he's just a mouse guy on TV. It's like, now he actually put in the work and then developed a multimillion dollar industry because of all the all the things they had to do.
Which is crazy. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, you don't get to see that very often. You only usually see like the, the experts at the, you know, toward the end, and now they're their authority, and you're like, how did they ever get there? That's cool that there's footage of him. It's
so cool to see because he's just so quiet. And I'm like, I think that's what we need. We have to treat like especially Sangha as like your apprenticeship. You know, you have to be in there. You have to be not only doing the work, but getting the feedback for the work. And you have to be getting feedback from people that are doing the thing that you want to do and are at the level you want to do. And I think yes, when you told me to write more songs and write full songs that carried more weight because I could look at what you were doing and you were already you already had some theory means you already were getting things place. This was already a thing that you were doing. You were just one Need to do it at a higher level, where I just wanted to do a trailer I was trying to do at any level. And so it carried more weight than necessarily somebody that was like in my local scene who's not doing the thing that I want. I was like, we're part of the looks like it's just like, it's you're just giving your opinion, were yours was much more of a critique based off of what you've done and your experience and the amount of work that you put in. Because you could point me into very specific things. And not just this vague. Like, I don't mind it. But I think that could change. Like, so many things could change, you were able to give me a very specific framework that I needed to focus on. And I think that's the big difference for people putting in the work, you have to be getting that consistently. And there's no level where it stops. That's the thing, too, there's no level where it stops.
I have to be honest, there's one thing that is always frustrating. It's when I see songwriters taking songs that still need to be developed that need adjustments, and they try to produce them out, or they pay 1000s upon 1000s of dollars to have someone produce it out, only to get a product back that they're not satisfied with that they're not happy with that they actually feel demoralized about the whole process. And then question should I be doing songwriting in the first place? Is there even a space for my songs? Regardless, if you're trying to aim for publishing trying to get a sync deal, or you just want to connect with an artist, here's the thing that needs to happen. You need feedback, you need feedback from someone you can look at and go, if future me looks like that. I'm absolutely okay. That's what I want to do. That's why I'm so glad Josh is doing song critiques. He has mentored me for years and got me to the caliber where I can get things placed consistently. And more importantly, I can create a stable living from this. Did you know that just one of Josh's songs has made him almost 200k in placements? 200k. Think about that. Do you think you could learn from someone like that. So here's what you need to do. Go to Song rank for guitar.com. And in the right hand corner, click book a critique and then book your session with Josh, believe me, it is well worth it to save yourself hours of frustration, and potentially 1000s and 1000s of dollars that you'll lose because the song is not ready. But instead getting the advice from Josh so you know what the next steps need to be. So songwriting for guitar.com right hand corner, click that red button that says Book your critique. Okay, let's head back into the episode.
You know, you had a career as a musician before we met, you know, we both did. And I think it's interesting that the more specialized you want to get, the better you want to get, the more focused you are, the more careful you have to be about the feedback that you're getting and who you're getting it from. Because at the very beginning, if you're just like, I want to learn how to play guitar, and maybe one day play at my local, you know, bar, my whatever the local festival here in town, you can get feedback from pretty much anybody you could get, you know, feedback from your grandma who plays piano, even though you're wanting to play guitar, and she might give you feedback that's like, your timings a little bit off, and you know that the your chord sounds a little bit buzzy, and that might totally be spot on and exactly the feedback of the thing that you need to work on. But once you start, like getting to that next level, maybe you've played your first show, and you're like, I want to get more shows, you can't go to Grandma anymore and ask for how do you increase your bookings? You know, what, what set orders should I do so people can keep dancing? And yeah, you know, like, at that point, now you need to go to somebody else who's actually done what you're doing and where you want to be. And, you know, when you get into sync, you can't, I mean, even us, we have to be careful about you know, if there's songwriters who are trying to write for artists and are interested in sync, that's a that's a very, those are two different paths. And you got to kind of it's different styles of writing
it is because it is a very, it's a specialized form of critique. And you're right, grandma's great for those first, you know that that starting but if you're like, I want to ask about like, how do I leverage out of state booking and how do I negotiate my fee and what you know, yeah, now at a different pay grade, and it's just like you then you've got to go to someone that's doing that. And you need to you need to connect with them. You need to probably pay them to be like, hey, you know, as a as a as a coaching fee as a critique fee. And what I love about what we're doing with sound critiques is just the fact that somebody can book it They can bring a song, and can get a specialized feedback on the next steps like what needs to happen. And more importantly, if you're buying like a package where you bring multiple songs, a person can also start to see your patterns. I think that's another thing. One, one song critique is great. But hearing multiple songs, you're able to see patterns, especially if someone's been doing this for a while and has had experience because we've had, we have patterns we recognize when it's like, ah, you know what, I do this a lot. There's a point where I need to freshen the toolbox, because this is becoming my go to. And now this is like, it's almost like, you know, the kids are like a crutch. Again, for dinner like this. Again, this again, is like, Shut Up Kids is what we got, I realized I have to do that. Because if not, I am going to fall back onto some reliables that are no longer going to be unique, or like cool or exciting, but like, yeah, oh, all of your past four songs have done that, you probably should do something different now. Yeah,
yeah, for so many reasons, like keeping, like, if you are working with a sync agent, or music supervisor, or even a co writer, they're gonna start to get bored. Like, if you keep bringing the same ideas, you know, your co writers gonna be like, Oh, we already wrote like, five of those songs, can we do something? Can we do a different angle on this? Can we freshen this up? And same thing with music supervisors, hearing the same songs from you all the time?
And again, some people may hear that and be like, what the answer is, oh, you just need to get feedback, and you need to find a new, you have to grow more, this is a period where you're gonna have to put in that work to develop those other things that will look natural, that will look at ease. But if it wasn't for those group of songs that you really spent time just writing and just kind of working on that process, you wouldn't have gotten. The other way somebody could look at that is that they hear like, Well, I'm not good anymore. It's like, it's not that you're not good anymore. It's that you, you thought that you were done with the messy metals that they that they're done, and they're over with, but they're not, you just entered a new level of messy middle, you've you moved your standards up a peg, which was great, you got there with that ease, which was all the hard work that you put in there. And then you had that period of time where you got to enjoy being there. Like you're like, oh, man, it's not saying don't enjoy and just jump into the work, totally enjoy, and feel great that you have done that, that you have put in the work so that you're at this new level. But with that new level, comes new standards, new standards means new development, new development means Welcome to the new messy middle, it's vaguely familiar. But it's, it's a thing that's gonna happen. And you have to you have to find your guide, you got to find that person that's going to help you. Like anyone that has coaching with me, I'm like, listen, I might not be your first coach, and I'm definitely not going to be your last coach, if you're going to do this full time. Like, you're gonna find someone different later on. Like, you're you, I want you to, absolutely I want you to because that means you're it's like the training wheels game, you're there. And you're at a new level, awesome, go do that thing. But it's going to be it's just going to be at a different level. It's not going to stop. And so I think the hard work is I heard this quote from Dr. And I think I said in the last podcast, maybe but it's just, it's just hitting me still. The book that I read 10x is easier than to X. He said, uncertainty is the price of admission. How is wrong? And I think that's what is sometimes what will the messy middle Well, I'm I don't know, if it's not going to work, it doesn't matter. It's just like you have to be all in with the messy metal. Otherwise, it's not going to develop or work. You have to be 100% committed to developing yourself and willing to be in those spots and get feedback and apply the feedback and do it again. And then do it again. And when you think it's ready, and they go like that's not bad, but you have to do that again. Oh, get you have to be like just like Gordon Ramsay and be like, Yes, sir. Or ma'am. And then you go back into putting into that work. And I was like, Yeah, anytime that you I'd be interested, you know, your take on this, but I feel like anytime they made a big leap to it is a big leap of uncertainty. But I realized it was just like, Okay, if I don't do this, am I okay with it saying it's not a priority? Or am I deeply disturbed by that? And does it not sit well with me? And most of the time, it didn't sit well with me. So I'd be like, cool. The uncertainty is better to me than the the just sitting on the sidelines knowing I should be doing it, but not making it a vital priority.
I think another kind of factor in this is kind of knowing your own personality. Yeah, I don't think we've talked about a lot but for me, I'm I'm a little bit of a like a contrarian, like I don't like being told what to do. I don't like just copying other people's work. I kind of want to do it my own way. Yeah. And I know that about myself. But I'm also, I love seeing what other people achieve. I love like when somebody gets a sound or write something that makes, you know, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, like, I want to be able to do that same thing, you know, but I want to be able to do it in my own way, find my own path. So there is that for me, there's always that uncertainty of like, okay, I learned as much as I can about the way that they did it. And if I don't exactly find that path, interesting, if I can't completely relate to it, then I need to find my own way to get there. And that's for me, that's where that uncertainty is. But it's kind of a bit like gambling of like, okay, I know, I've got this piece that I've really put the work in on. I know that I've got this. And I think if I put these two things together, yeah, then it will get me there. And that's, you know, it's this like, uncertainty of like, I know that I've had success with these things. But I've just find that really interesting. Like, I don't know, this might fail, but I'm going to try, I'm going to put in the work and see what happens here.
But what's interesting, you know, on the other end of that failure is a step closer to like, yeah, the and this is what's so crazy about it, because it's that kind of want, even if there's no downside to the failure, the failure is actually going to be really good. And it's going to be like we're talking with ecstatic joy, of like failure, and being like, it's quite wonderful. Because then you're going to like actually be a couple of steps ahead. Even if it doesn't get you the result that you wanted immediately. And you're like, dammit, yeah, but now you're a little bit closer, at better if you do it again, it gets a little bit better, because you also look like, Oh, I'm looking at these two parts they are developing, and they are getting better. So if I do this again, and apply what I learned from last time, and I don't do that, but instead of do that, yeah, I think that's going to work a lot. And surprise, surprise, it fucking does. Like, it's just like, it happens. And then you feel that's that next level, and you feel so good. And that's where you start to realize, like, oh, this work isn't going against me, but it's actually helping me. Like, I thought it was something that was detrimental. That was just time consuming. That was waste and that it wasn't going to produce the result that I wanted. But it actually helped me get to a place where I have a little bit more ease with this skill. And it got me this result, which if you're doing licensing, it's that first payout, and it doesn't have to be a lot in mind, what didn't have to be a lot to just be like, it confirmed a suspicion I had where it was like, okay, so it is I feel like kind of like Lloyd where it's just like, so you're telling me there is a chance. And it's just like, cool. It was just enough to then help me get to the next like that next bit. And I feel like if people just stay, and they get that feedback, which again, I love the fact that you're doing song critiques, because I'm like, this is a huge, huge, huge, huge thing. If somebody has not done this, but wants to get better. This is the entryway to getting better. And you know, we could sit here and we could go through your your record of everything that you've done to justify it, you know, and be like, This is the reason why Josh does it. Because here's the level at which he's produced. I mean, one song I know, and I think this is right, one song, one song that's gotten placed several times has been well over 100k. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
The math really, it's definitely over 100k. I was wondering if it was close to two now, but which
is crazy. So it's just like, if your result has not been that, and that's a desired result, then yes, get a song critique seems like cool. There might be some info that you could give me to help this process, develop my eyes to develop my process to develop my system. So I can take some knowledge and start applying it to future songs instead of me looking at the same song over and over and over again, dissecting it many different ways, banging my head against the wall, trying to figure it out, where I don't have the steps to help me get there. But you actually can be like, Okay, these are some things that I've noticed. And here's another thing, because now we've done two song reviews and I've noticed you tend to do this and this. If you want this result, you may have to avoid doing this bit right here.
Just in our last call when we were giving feedback. Yeah, we We're talking about something and I played one of the songs where I was like, I know that what your this path that you're going down right now is not going to end well, because I've got this song, listen to how good it sounds, and it was so good. And everybody was like, it's great. And you're like, I've never been able to do anything with it. Yep, I love it so much, and I can't ever pitch it. So just, you know, I've made the mistake for you, congratulations, I just saved you a bunch of time. Exactly.
Like think of how, you know, not only just time, but sometimes money, things like that can save someone who's just starting out. It's huge. So if you're listening to my voice, and you've enjoyed these two episodes, where you've heard about, like, all our talks about avoiding the work, but actually choosing to instead, you know, you're like, Okay, I need to put in the work. The next step, obviously, is critique. And so that's where you need to go and listen to Josh, I can speak from experience, how much it's helped me, because probably with you are the first person to give real advice that I was like, Oh, you're doing the thing that I want to do. And a lot of people have been telling me to do this, this and this. I'm looking at what they're currently doing. And I don't want to do that. Like and they don't have. They're nice, but they're kind of like that grant there. That's not the advice that I need right now. I need someone who is making an income from this. And I want to get better at the production but I have to realize that the songwriting may need some work. And I need to be okay with that. I need to be okay with taking some of those steps and not doing 25 Different lush guitar parts with 45 Amazingly stacked harmonies that or just doing an AA that I spent the entire morning doing, instead of writing maybe two songs that could have instead moved me much further. So book a book a session with Josh, so I'm sure we're gonna get into a lot, lots more many things, but I think this was a good discussion to dive into. Not skipping the work. Absolutely. It was a good one.
And that does it for this week. This episode was edited. Produced by Chris Mathias, I'm Mike Myers. Thanks for listening.