Ep 78: Riding the Wave of Change

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Join us on an adventure-filled episode with Geoff Duncan a chart-topping producer and songwriter who has collaborated with countless artists, networks, and brands. 

Geoff's colorful journey is an inspiration to anyone in music. In this podcast, we'll explore the secrets of his successes and how to navigate big changes in life. 

We'll also delve into the pressures and quick turnarounds that come with opportunities, and discuss how following through on your commitments can be scary but worth it. 

Whether you're looking to break into the music charts, learn production skills, up your guitar game, or attend a networking event, this episode is packed with valuable insights and tips to help you achieve your goals. 

Tune in and take a chance on yourself - and while you're at it, take a chance on leaving us a review! Our team works hard to put this podcast together, and your feedback would mean the world to us! 

 

Read the transcript below...

Mike Meiers  0:00  

Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the Songwriting for Guitar Podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career with you love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

 

Hey friends, Mike Meiers here with song rank for guitar podcast episode number 78. Riding the Wave of Change with Geoff Duncan. Now in this episode, I talked to New Zealand born producer songwriter, multi instrumentalist, Jeff Duncan, and we're going to talk about exactly that, riding that wave of change, because the one thing I took away from this conversation was, he is always moving on to that next thing, he is so well versed because he's generated millions of streams, he has appeared in the Billboard charts, his music has been heard on countless networks for countless brands. And in this episode, we are going to talk about change. How do you make those transitions, different points within your life where you move on to the next thing, because with Jeff, he's had a colorful life in terms of careers and the things that he's done. I think this is super inspiring, especially if you're someone on the verge of making a transition, thinking about making a change. If you think you want to learn that new idea in production, if you want to dive into licensing a little bit more, maybe you want to take a chance and visit that Music City, see what it's like to to be there and figure out maybe this is a place I should move. This is an episode you need to listen to. So we're gonna dive into it right now. Episode number 78. riding the wave of change with Jeff Duncan.

 

Oh man, Geoff, this is I'm super pumped to have you here. Because you know, I came into recommendation then it was cool to just kind of like do a little digging. And then when we were talking, you're like, Oh, I'm in Nashville. And I'm like, where? And then you told me I was like, That's by me. It's just so funny. How, you know? It's Yes, it's a vast world. There's lots of people, but it's amazing how sometimes you're like, really close to people. You don't even realize?

 

Unknown Speaker  2:24  

Yeah, totally. I mean, you can't get away with anything. Put it that way.

 

Mike Meiers  2:28  

No, no, you can't, you can't get away with shit. But you know, we're not here about getting away with stuff we're talking about. I know, you've just got a cool, a very cool background and your story to me, because you're originally from New Zealand. You know, even in your backyard in one of your bylaws. It's like, you know, from Australia, to Hong Kong to China, Indonesia, Canada, Sweden, all the way to Nashville. I mean, can we talk about some of the in between, you know, so you're raised that, you know, originally from, you know, New Zealand, but was traveling kind of a big thing. And music is, you know, is it not necessarily a big thing within New Zealand?

 

Geoff Duncan  3:04  

 Well, I mean, I think a lot of people are into music, and there's a lot of great music made in New Zealand, you know, and a lot of super talented people. I think, the me, I was trying to do stuff that was harder to do in New Zealand, you know, what I mean? Like, straight pop music, which now I think you can do it from anywhere, as we're seeing and so many cool pop music makers from New Zealand, you know, but it was definitely harder to do that, you know, unless you wanted to play on jingles. Like get down to the pizza shop, you know, like, and I was like, I don't know if I want to do that, you know, now, like, I want to make songs that people hear that go on the radio, whatever. But I mean, I kind of got my start in high school bands, you know, and play bass and sang in a band. And, you know, and then toured and a Christian band just around schools and stuff and just had a lot of gigs on the road kind of period of my life. And it was during that I actually met Paul Mabry, who, you know, we talked about that sound and the drum sample stuff. And so him and I met in 1992. So I mean, a while ago now, you know, so we've been friends for a long time. And then mid late 90s, I moved to China and played guitar for the Hard Rock Cafe and Gong Joe in southern China. You know, I had friends who were doing that gig and they were like, Oh, this guy's leaving. Would you want to do it? And I was like, Yeah, that sounds awesome. Okay, you got to learn these 500 songs and all these dance moves. And you know, and I basically rehearse the bet with the band like one or two days before I went to China to play. I played on New Year's Eve was my first show and gong show at the Hard Rock so like a met probably the biggest night of the year. And so I'm walking on stage, vaguely knowing the songs you know, I can't

 

Mike Meiers  4:39  

imagine you know, one thing playing but then being like, show us the dance move again here. What do I have to do? Like?

 

Speaker 2  4:45  

I don't know if you've seen me dots. You haven't. But like, yeah, I was I felt bad for the people of China to have to watch that. But I mean, you get through it, you know, but it's funny because I remember the day after I signed the contract to go to China. I tried to get out of it. I was like, I got coffee, I don't know if I want to go and they wouldn't let me out of it. They're like not, I got no time to get anyone else now, so you have to do it. And it was the best thing like because I was like, Man that feels really big. And like not you have to do it. So it's perfect. So I went did it and learned a lot and played a lot of music and got better at guitar and just a lot of rhythm playing. And you're playing everything from algebra and jazz stuff through to like literally Enter Sandman. So it's just the whole range of stuff, a lot of pop stuff like and you had, you had to learn 10 new songs a week, and half of them had to be in like Chinese or Korean or whatever, for the visiting business people who would visit the hotel. So I mean, that was an intense but fun season. And then I did it again in Indonesia working for Shangri La Hotel, too. So it was kind of like I lived in a pool bar and just had an epic tan and played music, it was kind of awesome. And then I came back to New Zealand. And it was really difficult to work commercially. And I was playing in covers bands and doing that kind of stuff. But it wasn't like, there wasn't opportunity to be like, play on a Michael Jackson record or play on like be a session guy playing on pop records that were just wasn't the thing. So, you know, after a while of, you know, making music and various forms, I worked in visual effects for a wall and head of visual effects company. And that was fun. And I mean, I love that stuff, too technical, technical and creative. Stuff I love. So music production and visual effects, to me have a lot of similarities. You know, and I love that stuff. And working on it was super fun. I learned a lot and you know, and then I turned 40. And I was like, I really want to get back into music. So that was 2011. So I moved here in 2012. Okay, so

 

Mike Meiers  6:37  

like, there's so much that so I think I think number one, but I just love the casual, like I was hearing that was here. But it's interesting how you committed to playing guitar in, you know, and you were like, oh, I need to get out of this. But then you kind of that ended up being the best experience. But I can't imagine, you know, for someone for a decade when I taught guitar, you know, you know, constantly learning new songs, teaching new songs, deconstructing new songs, it's just basically that in itself and then trying to replicate and then play is a school in itself. There's no question like that then just to me, because you're deconstructing the process, but you're listening to all of it. So it's like you're absorbing. So you were the pre Spotify, you are essentially Spotify before Spotify. Well, you had to know all these different different styles and different things.

 

Speaker 2  7:27  

Yeah. And you know, from a guitar player perspective, you know, you do get good at that process. Like I used to be able to learn the whole set by sitting by the pool with my cassette Walkman and the bandleader Pat would distribute the tapes with all the 10 songs for the weekend, we're all just have to learn them. And I just sit by the pool and listen to him. And I'd be like, I don't know what key it's in. But I just use numbers, and I could just remember it and play it. And then I would go to the rehearsal. And we used to finish the show at like, 2am wait till the bar cleared out at 3am. So have a drink or get some food or whatever. And then we'd rehearse till like five or six in the morning when because the venue is soundproof. So you can rehearse and not disturb the guests in the hotel. But you know, and so we would rehearse the stuff. And I'd be like, just on it. You know what I mean? Not because I'm so good. It's just more like you get into that muscle of being like, I just know the sections. You sort of make little Lego pieces in your mind for the song of I know the chords for the verse. And of course for the pre and then you make other LEGO that says, intro, verse pre chorus pose. I mean, and you just have that. And so once you know it, you know it, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it's it's a fun process. And that's pretty cool. Yeah, it can be daunting. But once you're once it's your day to day life, you know, and then you're learning all these backing vocals in Chinese. I don't speak Chinese. I mean, you sort of learning it as you go. And I mean, was funny, I was back in Shanghai in 2019, playing a show with a really dear friend of mine who had a song and a massive video game over there. And it was like the world camps. And so, you know, so we went over to play that song at the opening ceremony for the world champs of this online video game, which is only played in China, right? Honor of kings, the only place to play it is China. So it's like, it's like the World Series of baseball. It's only played in America. It's like honor of Kings is only played in China, as far as I'm aware. Anyway, there's like, 4 million people watching this thing online. You know what I mean? So there's 15,000 people in the state and we play one song and the production like the live production had all this, you know, virtual reality and augmented reality on the screen. So they were panning cameras and there was stuff on the TV that wasn't there was all that I mean, incredible production value was crazy. So but even going back there after all those years and hearing the language and just being able to say stuff and be the odd and earth I remember that. So it was kind of fascinating to go back, you know, but yeah, so the process of the guitar stuff like, and, you know, learn like I learned Broadway by George Benson, in the middle of the show by watching the bass players fingers and trying to keep up you know what I mean? Because I'd never heard that song. You know, don't, don't, don't don't and I'm just and then he's like nodding his head to the right, which I'm assuming means we're modulating and so he goes up a half there think Don't say you're just watching it in real time, and I I was playing songs which I'd never heard that might have been some piano ballad. And they would be like, it's in B minor, there's a solo, I'll kick you, when you play a solo just be like, Steve, look, if they play a melodic solo with lots of chorus, and sweet, I guess we're playing this thing. I'm just bubbling along with a clean little sound. And he kicks me and I just play a big melodic solo, I'm just going for it. I don't know how the solo goes. And then we're back out into the, I just You just make it up. And it's just like, just looked like you know what you're doing. And off you go. And I must have played Hotel California, like, I don't know, 500 times, you know, I mean, it's like,

 

Mike Meiers  10:31  

just that idea of that, okay, hey, this is we're gonna give you the nod when to go and then you got to play this thing. Or it's just like, I have to watch this change. And I Oh, we're doing this. So it's a lot of that visualization that feels so it makes sense that you then when you got home, you were like, Oh, cool. I'm gonna start this company, mixing visuals and sound because you're you were already. I feel like when you're listening to music, there's like a visualization to it as well. Because he said, you know, you're thinking about chord progressions, number progression. So even though you may not know the key, you're like, I think it's a 145. And then we're at a six, I think that's a three, it makes sense that suddenly you then transition this and then transition into licensing, which is all about just like, hey, here's the feel. Let's make it up. It's not a foreign concept to you.

 

Speaker 2  11:17  

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think you're right, there's definitely a correlation between the emotion of music and the emotion of images. And you know, what, I think once you understand one, you can sort of apply that to being like, well, what emotion is the image evoking? And how do I support that with the music that I'm trying to make? You know what I mean, which I think is where licensing, you can really shine as to if you're interested in really delving into the emotion of the story, you have you have a palette to play with, you know, so yeah, I mean, I really love the dark cinematic stuff that I have a project with my 18 year old daughter code holding. And it's like this dark Nordic kind of cinematic stuff. And that's like, very much down there. All we want to feel this real tangible, spookiness or whatever, you know, and we're making all these stupid dark lyrics, everything. We're just laughing our heads off, because it's just so funny and stupid, but it's just, you know, she'll be like, I got this lyric, what do you think is like wind on the water blood in the well, and it's like stone dark, and oh, my god. It's so perfect. Like, where's this come from? You're 18. You know, she's probably 17 or 16 when we made that song, but it's like, you know, fun fun, just, as you say, correlating the emotion of the music with the emotion of the picture and all that. So yeah, I mean, I guess it all does tie together in that way.

 

Mike Meiers  12:28  

It's interesting. You said, like, I turned 40. And I realized, Oh, I really want to do this. And then you made that jump. I think there's so many people that have this preconceived notion that when you reach a certain age, that's over. Like, it stops, like, you know, music closes its store, I'm sorry, you have to be this, you know, below this age. And there's so many just preconceived notions. But again, it's kind of like when you were like, well, I guess, I'm gonna go play guitar here. You jumped in, and you made that jump to like, a brand new country and just like to start doing this? Well, they'll

 

Speaker 2  13:02  

always be some reason to say no, you know, they'll always be a reason you can use to talk yourself out of whatever you think you might want to do with your life, you know, and they'll always be someone else, they'll be prepared to try and talk you out of what you're doing for their own reasons, whether they're cognizant of it or not, like whether or not it's you chasing your dreams as now highlighting to them that they work in a cubicle, and they're not chasing their dreams. So they're gonna tell you, Oh, man, I don't know if that's a good idea. I'd hate to see a follow up like that it comes out of this place of concern, and maybe genuine but I think sooner or later, you have to decide that your life is gonna be what you decide to make it, you know, and I mean, I go through loops of feeling like, Man, I'm out of my depth. I don't know what I'm doing. And then something happens, or I just follow my heart or my instinct and just make something that I'm like, and then that's the thing that works. And I'm like, Cool. I'll follow that, you know, and I mean, it's not like, I don't want to sound like, oh, man, this is the answer. It's like, no, but I think that you will not find the answer without exhibiting some courage and making some decisions for yourself to be like, Well, I'm not prepared to stay where I am. So a necessary move is for me to go somewhere where I'm not, you know, to find what I'm looking for, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah, for me, I didn't know what it would mean to be in America, I came here. I'd been working with a musician in New Zealand who had made, we've made some albums together, he'd done really well. And we'd played massive festivals together. And we're very tight friends used to go surf together. And, you know, he had gotten signed to a US record label and was over here. And I'd made noises about wanting to get out of visual effects into the one he kind of play guitar with me on the road while you figure out where you fit. And that was, you know, came in 2012 and got off the road at the end of 2015. And then hit the ground running as a songwriter and producer and obviously still playing guitar on all the stuff that I do. And, you know, yeah, there's no way to separate the fear of it. You know, like, we're sort of like, you're talking about making that jump and just doing it it's like, it's not without trepidation. It's not like, you know, Amen. I know, I just know, I didn't have some innate belief that this was the right thing, and I was gonna crush it. You know, I don't, I don't think if that's what you're waiting for, you may want to reevaluate that, because you'll never do anything like that degree of confidence probably means you're still too far in your comfort zone to find really what you're looking for, you know, I think you have to stretch yourself to really be like, oh, man, I am doing something now, you know, there's very little gold to be found in your comfort zone, you know, it's sitting in front of a TV is not going to, you're not going to find what you're looking for, you know,

 

Mike Meiers  15:34  

I think people need to rewind to those past couple of things that you just said, like, but it's true. It's, it's funny, if you think you feel super confident, that may be a signal, like you're still in the comfort zone, you're not being stretched a little bit. And, yeah, when you're in a space that you know, really well, and you're probably not gonna find anything new, because it's all Yeah, or,

 

Speaker 2  15:58  

or you're really in your sweet spot, and it's all coming supernatural. It's exactly where you're supposed to be. I mean, I don't know, like, you know, they both go hand in hand, don't they? Like, the polar opposites? Can both it can be both. And, you know, they can just both be right? You know, I don't know, I don't want to discourage people who are like, No, but I'm not scared, I'm really in my sweet spot, stuff going amazing, like, perfect, you know, do that. For me, that wasn't what it was, for me, the greatest breakthroughs for myself have come out of periods of extreme discomfort, you know, professionally, personally, and my personal growth and my professional growth, it's like, it's had to the head, I've had to have some grit to get through some things to get to the next thing, you know, and I'm 51 now. So I mean, I've had a bit of time to learn from some of this stuff. And I'm the only said that because I needed say that. I mean, I look after myself, you know, and I'm sort of motivated to live long and be happy and, you know, try and bring the best version of myself for as long as I can to the world and my kids and, you know, for myself, and so I'm motivated to live long and try and live well, and just be really happy and productive and excited about what I'm doing. You know, but yeah, it's not without its challenges for sure. And musics a tough road. However, your skin like, you know, your you know, it's it was never going to be the easiest path. You know,

 

Mike Meiers  17:13  

it's funny that you mentioned grit, one of my favorite books is Grit by Angela Duckworth. And she talks about like that idea of that the thing that is the biggest payoff, or the thing that has the most reward actually doesn't come easy. At the beginning, it's actually really tough. And there's a lot of points where you can just drop off, where you can just just stop. But it's those that kind of stick with it with that grit that kind of look at the problem, and the thing that they're facing, and you know, they're, they feel the intimidation, but they're more intrigued on how to solve it, and figure it out and like work around it, as opposed to just being like, hands in the air. I just don't know, you know, I guess there's no way to solve it, I might as well just stay where I'm at.

 

Speaker 2  18:00  

I will never judge anyone from being like, this is really, really hard. I'm actually gonna go and get a job doing something else. You know what I mean? There's absolutely no shame in making those decisions. You know, for me, it's more like, in times of sort of adversity and discomfort, I get to a place where I'm through the part where I'm really just upset and in a turmoil, and I get to a place of where I'm just genuinely curious as to whether I can actually get through this, you know, like, can I actually make this work like, and then it becomes like, Alright, let's go, You know what I mean? And that's been in a number of areas of my life, you know what I mean? And it's really like, if you allow yourself to become curious, and that might be, I'm trying to learn how to sweet pick these arpeggios. And like, because it's really difficult. And I'm just curious if I just keep going, well, I get better. Well, the answer is yes, you will like I mean, if I can sweep back arpeggios, and anyone can, because I'm clumsy as anything. But this guitar stuff that applies this music, career stuff that applies this, do I have the courage to share my idea and my first I'm in a co write for the first time and I'm terrified of just getting shot down and looking stupid. Of course you are. That's the first time you've been in the CO right but just You're there to write a song, write a great song, bring all of yourself to things that you put yourself into, don't hold back, there's this idea that, you know, people have, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna give everything because then if it fails, I didn't really give it all I've got, you know, so I'll be able to shepherd myself from knowing that I actually failed. I didn't really try. So I've protected myself from failure. Well, you still failed, you fail to really bring yourself to it. And then if it didn't go where you want it, you still fail. You're just deluding yourself in that situation. So it's like, you'll never regret bringing all of yourself to a situation, you know, and just bringing your best you'll never recover. And if you do, then just you need to sit down and talk to yourself about that because there's never a good reason to regret that I should say like, there will never be a good reason to regret bringing everything of who you are into what you're doing, whether that's your guitar practice. Yeah. boring scales and metronomes your code, practical it learning a song, writing a song, doing your dishes, making your bed when you first get up in the morning, doing your pushup looking after your health, like caring for your pet, like I mean, all of it, you know, all of it, just bring your best like, sounds really, really easy. And sometimes it's very difficult to do that, you know,

 

Mike Meiers  20:20  

what you're also talking to is just bringing your best and just your authentic self. And I think people are really scared to do that. Because either from experience they did, and someone was like, you know, that kind of like snapped at them made a comment. And then again, that self-consciousness that fear, kind of like we kind of pull inside a little bit, well, I'll give a little bit. But really, when you do the thing that you're that you love, or that moment where you feel like you're kind of in that elements, because that authentic self has really shine through. And even when it's scary, you're still like allowing that to happen.

 

Speaker 2  20:55  

Oh, yeah, life is scary stuff is scary, like, planning stuff. Scary, you know? And if, if you are going to let that be the thing that stops you doing stuff, you'll never do anything? And then you have something to regret, you know?

 

Mike Meiers  21:15  

Hey, it's Mike. And I just wanted to jump in the middle of this podcast to ask you if you've been listening to this for quite a while, because here we are episode number 78. And you know, you haven't left us a review on Apple podcast. Could you do that right now, because that would be huge. It could just be like talking about your favorite episode. Because believe me, reviews matter. We read each one. And it helps bring notoriety and awareness of our podcast and brings more exposure. So it really helps us out a ton. So if you've been listening to us for a very long time, and you haven't done that yet, could you just take a moment right now, I truly do appreciate it. And I truly appreciate you continuing to listen and share this podcast. So without further ado, let's jump back in to this week's episode.

 

You know, you were on tour, you came here and then you planted roots in Nashville. I mean, how was it starting to build up? What is a fantastic career? I mean, we're talking millions of streams, you've got, you know, appeared in several Billboard charts, you know, awards placements, and various things that you do. And I mean, there's, you know, there's that sound design, there's that production element, there's the songwriting element, and then, you know, sampling. I mean, how has that process? How did that get started, especially when you're planning to help? You know, being in a Music City?

 

Speaker 2  22:39  

Yes, I mean, so much. I might work as remote. But I think, being in the Music City and meeting the people that I met, you know, it's always the people isn't sort of relationships, you know, and I didn't, you know, you're talking about sampling. So yeah, I mean, I was I was helping that, that sound guys with that stuff. So there was Dustin who own that sound, Dustin, and I had met at a songwriting camp like years before and just become friends a couple years before that sound was a thing. And we just became friends. And we just were hanging out as mates. And, and I know, Paul since 1992, so we go way back. But we hadn't spent a whole lot of time together in Nashville since I've been here. And then they put out these drum samples. And I'm like, Well, hey, guys, well, I use logic, and I bundled them into a sampler, preset, because that's how I like to use drum samples. And I just sent them over and said, well, here you go. Give these to your community, if you want, this is how I like to use them. And then they were like, well, this is awesome. Do you want to help us do this, you know, and so that kind of pave the way to me sound designing packs and helping with implementing them into presets of various platforms and kind of building on top of what they were doing, which is essentially, here's some wav files, some one shots and some loops. And I was like, Man, I love using these as presets within a sampler or whatever. So this kind of helped facilitate some of the tech stuff and had a little team put together. And you know, and that was a really fun season, we fly around when I made a pack coat hanger. So we jumped on a private jet and flew to Denver and recorded drums in the hangar and had sushi and flew home. It was I mean, epic, you know, and just really, really good, good friends doing fun stuff together. So I mean, that was a hugely rewarding thing. And I love drums. I mean, I don't know, any producer engineer or whatever, who doesn't love messing around with recording and mixing and tweaking drums, you know. And so yeah, and I love to help people figure out what they can bring into sample library land, you know, and I've had this conversation a lot. And we see a lot of smaller companies springing up. There's lots of guys making dope stuff that's like, well, this is art that I make, and maybe it'll be useful to someone else, you know, and I think that's such a valid reason for looking at, you know, making sample libraries and stuff. So I love helping people navigate some of the how and why and what around making sample libraries you know, and I mean, that's just a piece of it. And then, you know, I mean, I write songs I have several songwriter collaborations that continue to pump songs over to Amsterdam like me My friend Jordan gross have written a bunch of stuff for him. And he's an incredible artist. He knows everyone is friends with all of those massive DJs. So we can get songs straight to the people not not via a&r and all that. And you know, the a&r guys report back and tell us what they need, but it's like, it's great. So we have this in vendor and single out at the moment with our friend unethical, vulnerable, that he's been playing all around the world at all festivals, and it's just been so cool. Making a song in this basement in Franklin and having it go, and the biggest dance DJ in the world makes it a smash, you know, and it's like, Man, this is so fun. You know, like, I never saw myself doing that. But it's just like, I've known Jordan for years. And we just started working together on stuff. And it's just kind of where it went, you know? And I think all of it is like that. So you could be like, well, you're just lucky, but it's almost like, well, everything good in life is luck. Everything bad in life is like, in a way, it's like you're not in control of like, what we think we are to the extent that we think we are you know what I mean? It's, you know, saying like, you know, oh, I got that job, I want it Well, that was kind of lucky, awesome. You, you were prepared for it. And it went your way? Well, that's all I'm saying. It's like, yeah, we're prepared for it. We've done the work, we know how to make a vocal sound good. We get better at writing songs, we can play some chords that sound cool together. And then we have an opportunity, we made something cool. And it wins, you know? So I think it's all like, more or less. You know,

 

Mike Meiers  26:19  

I also see you It's interesting how you reached out to the guys for sampling. You were like, Hey, here's this thing that I'm doing with no it no strings of like, I'd like to do the it was just like, hey, I want to be of service and help.

 

Speaker 2  26:33  

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Oh, dear friends of mine. Let me support what you're doing. You know, yeah.

 

Mike Meiers  26:37  

And that's the thing too, it's almost, you know, those those relationships are so important. And it's, you know, sometimes we say like, Hey, just be a good hang, be a friend, be someone that you want to spend time with. Because I love. And it's the same with friends that I've had, they've brought me into things I brought them into, because it's like, you want to share it, you you don't want to hog this. Yeah. And you realize the value of bringing other people because they again, it's just their perspective. And the thing, there's little Zona genius that you're like, Well, with this and me, this is amazing.

 

Speaker 2  27:13  

Yeah, we could we could do something cool. Yeah, yeah. Or I'm just friends with them. And I'm not trying to get in on the thing. And then they're not really trying to get on to my thing. We're just friends, not every friendship with someone in the music business needs to be leveraged, you know, like, it's like, just following that organic process of being like, what's serving this situation, and what's serving the song, what's serving this friendship relationship, or whatever, you know, and some of the best things. I mean, all of the best things in my life have just come about through, you know, a relationship or a friend, and then you end up in a situation that leads to something because you've just got people in your life who are special to you, you know, and I mean, I think that's the best way for these things to happen. And nothing feels contrived. Nothing feels like you're playing to an agenda. It's just like, of course, cool stuff happens. I just have cool people in my life. And we're all just doing cool stuff, you know, like, just be around people who you love, like, you know, what sounds so obvious. But it's, it's really important.

 

Mike Meiers  28:09  

You know, some people don't, and I remember getting one. I had like a mentoring session once with someone way back in the day. And I was like, he was like, wow, even if you write a song with someone, and you don't necessarily like them, if it's a good song, keep on writing. And I was like, Really, I was like, I feel like I wouldn't want to write. Like, why would I want to do that to myself. And to me, it's like, what you're describing too, is like, especially some of those things that are built on friendships, you're not, you know, seeking, like, it has to be this, my agenda is like, we're gonna write a song, and eventually, you're gonna pull me into this thing it's like, or we could just be friends. And it may not happen till years later. And that's fine, or it may not happen. I just like you and I like what you're about. And that sort of energy, whatever you choose to call it vibe that you put out is what makes people go like, ah, that'd be great. It'd be great to work with him. I think, you know, I need to pull him in on this. As opposed to like, man, every time I'm with him, I feel like Kai is like a shakedown. He's kind of like, Hey, give me this thing.

 

Speaker 2  29:06  

Ya know, no one wants to feel like that. And then you're not even if that's your attitude, you're probably not even really friends with the person. So, I mean, I think authenticity is really important when you're, you're not hanging out with people for what they can get you. It's like, you just find your people find your people and, you know, foster that friendship and collaborate where it fits and don't force it and, you know, great things that you know, and we grow together to like, I mean, I listened to some songs that I made in 2010 2011, before I came here, you know, tracks that I was working on, and I listened. I mean, I moved across to the other side of the world to be a producer and write songs, right. And I played guitar for a while to facilitate the song. I listened to those things, and they were horrible. Like, I wasn't really like, you know, if I landed in 2012, and someone said, Oh, well, you've got a chance to work on the new Maroon Five single I would have shanked that like, I wouldn't have been really I didn't know what I was. Doing stuff sounds terrible, you know, not all the ideas are terrible, but man, no idea about how to make a mix sound good, really, you know, like, I'm not trying to be unkind to myself, but it's like you grow and so not getting ahead of yourself doing the work putting in the time to be ready for what's for you like, it's important, you know? So, yeah, I mean, I think all that stuff matters. And it's, it's gonna change the way your career unfolds, if you're able to do the work, not trying to take shortcuts, care for the people you're in relationship with, so that then when they meet someone, if they introduce you, and lead you somewhere cool, but like that, you're not putting the pressure on those relationships, you're just doing great stuff. And people are attracted by that. And you're looking after yourself, and you're walking in with your head held high, and you know who you are, and you're in a good headspace and you're taking care of your mental well being and your emotional well being, you're taking care of your musicality and your chops and your ideas. And you can play in the pocket and you've done the work, you know, across all these things, so that when you come, you have something to offer that's genuinely like, oh, man, I see this guy walk in and he's got something, I want to be around that energy, you know, because we all have some in our brain, you know, we all do you know,

 

Mike Meiers  31:11  

you that you said you listened to some of your songs from then you were like, oh, man, they're there. And you know, for some people will be like, Well, what's missing? What what plugins did you get what what? But it's like, all what was missing was all these experiences that got you in a position to where things got better. And like you stay consistent within you can stayed consistent with all those things that you said that, yeah, naturally, you fast forward. And it's like a war, you know, worlds part difference from where you were and where you are now, but you're still continuing that because, you know, then in the next five years, you're gonna look back and be like, Oh, that work. But you know what, I would probably do something different now, because you've gained all this different insight because you've allowed the process to expand and change,

 

Speaker 2  31:55  

right? And you evolve as a creative person, too. So, you know, when I was learning guitar as a teenager, all I cared about was Paul Gilbert and Jason Becker, like all I cared was about what shredding like ripping, I could totally shred, but I'd never played a chord. And like, I've never actually played chords, like a song, you know. And I remember being like, because when I was in high school, I was playing bass, I wasn't playing guitar, and I switched to guitar after high school. And I was rapping. As I remember, learning a G chord is cool, you know, like, I could already read, like, I could just riff along with records, like, totally melt your face off, and I couldn't play, you know, wonderwool probably, you know what I mean? It's like, crazy. So I say that from the point of view, yes, I have hunted for the shortcuts. And I have, I can strip I can't even play a song. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to be in a band. I don't know how to play funky rhythm stuff that feels good. So people will dance and it feels great, you know? So it's just the same thing with writing songs in production, like just making sure that you're well rounded and really like figuring yourself out as a musician. So you have something to offer, you know,

 

Mike Meiers  33:05  

I'd be interested to see how has your your listening transformed, because it's funny you mentioned when you were, you know, working in that cover band, you they would hand you that tape and you put in the Walkman you'd listen, how was your listening now? Like, how has that changed or evolved a little bit when you listen to music, that you're interested in things that are just drawing you in? A great question.

 

Speaker 2  33:25  

I mean, I listen to so much different stuff. You know, like, I love atmospheric stuff. I love juice world. I love Post Malone, I love Skrillex especially all that new stuff. I love fried again, like, Man, I only came across through it again from my friend Solly in October. And I listened to it so much that by the end of the year, my Spotify wrapped I was in the top point 1% of his listeners, I was just like, it was all I was looking, I was just absolutely addicted to it if it was just such great music, you know. So I have a very eclectic taste. And so I can listen to Skrillex not analyzing it just being like, this is the vibe. Or I can listen to the all that pitched up hand drum is so circle, I mean, you they can be analytical, or you can just kind of be chill and be like, I'm just enjoying it, you know, and I probably am constantly phasing between analyzing it and just being in and enjoying it, you know, and some stuff I don't really analyze. I'm just like, this is a vibe. I'm not trying to understand it. I just want to experience it as a music fan. Yeah. And then maybe once I've just had that experience experience will be like what's making that have that what's making it have that impression on me, you know, try and analyze it a little more or whatever. But I don't I'm certainly not just been like, oh, that's the forecourt, you know, I mean, you know what I mean? I can I can still listen as if ignorant, you know, like, I don't mean that the bad way but just oblivious is probably better. Like I can listen in a way where I'm oblivious to what's going on technically or musically and just enjoy the emotion and feeling of the song, you know, like Vancouver sleep clinic or something like that. It's like, I don't have to transcribe it in my head or whatever it is, you know, it's couple of songs. I just love, you know, and it's like, man, it's I just

 

Mike Meiers  35:00  

flipped the switch, essentially, yes, go in between those things, which is awesome. Because

 

Speaker 2  35:05  

otherwise I would lose the enjoyment of the music. I think if I was only ever analyzing it, I would miss the point of having music in my life where it's such a healing. Inspiring. Yeah, just an inspiring element of my life that I don't want to lose that, you know,

 

Mike Meiers  35:22  

because if you lose that, it's like, I feel like then are you going to create things that are authentic?

 

Speaker 2  35:27  

Yeah, I was gonna say, if I lose that I probably changed careers, you know, because I would lose the excitement for it if it was just all purely analytical. Because, I mean, when I'm making my songs, I don't just want to think, technically, I go by feel so much when I'm making a song. I'm like, oh, we should go to the I mean, I know the math, I know that. You know, I know the modes. I know the chord math, I know the stuff. And I can explain and justify whatever. But when I'm making a song, and I'm sitting here and the artist is vibing. And we're just going for it. I'm not thinking about that. I'm just literally responding. And my hands just go where they go. And I'm like, and I don't overthink everything. I mean, for an idea to settle and become the idea and become the song. The worst session for me is if I'm making a chord progression, and I've got four chords, and then someone's like, I wonder if that seven chord should I mean, it's just like, man, just come with something settle, you know, just, let's just let something settle this will be fine. You know, I think it's really important not to overthink everything, I think it's really important to go by feel and let ideas settle and coalesce. And then build on that so that you have a structure becoming tangible. You know, like, if you never let anything settle if nothing's ever. No, that's not it. That's not it. Let's go for lunch, and then nothing will ever be it. Like, you know, if that's not it, then what does it need to be? What are you hoping it would be like, people just get so in their head, and it's just like, let it settle, let something happen for a second before you decide it's not right. You know, and I've done that, too. I've done it too. So I'm not saying that from a high horse. I'm just like, it's really important to learn how to just let ideas settle and coalesce and become something, you know,

 

Mike Meiers  37:02  

the one thing that you say, and I feel like I see this a lot. And I know, I get questions where people are like, what does that mean? Where you said, the feel, you know, I'm not necessarily when I'm adding us I'm not like, okay, from on this spectrum. Here's the dB of where we need to be. And we need to be under but I'm like, I'm going to add this in because it feels really right. And let's cut this because I want to feel like it needs to get like it's a lot of these words feel but like it works. And people are like, what does that mean? And it's like, I think it's partial, you've put in the work, but you're also allowing your instinct of where it should go, you're not kind of fighting that and being like, oh, it shouldn't go there. Because I should think about this. It's that fear based kind of thinking that creates things that don't always have a very cohesive feel, but feels a little predictable, feels a little choppy, or just something feels off.

 

Speaker 2  37:50  

I'm saying yeah, no, I mean, and yeah, I think it's entirely subjective, like what I think feels awesome. Someone else might be like, Oh, that rubs me the wrong way. And I've definitely had things where people have wanted and sitting note, I'm like, oh, that just makes me physically uncomfortable. Because it's just such a sixth note against the one chord, you know, something that feels like a very weak, harmonic position to take. And I'm just like, ah, that's uncomfortable to me, you know, and sometimes they're right should be that but like, you know, I think it's entirely subjective. And you have to just kind of decide what you like, and have the confidence to be like, that feels good to me. I'm gonna do that. And then you don't have to question it again, necessarily, unless you're like down the tracks, like, can I beat that? Cool? I mean, can I beat it question is entirely valid and should be asked, whenever appropriate. But I think sometimes things settle. It's like, I could change it, I could make it different. Would it be better? Arguably, no, it's just gonna be different. And you can make it different all day forever, and never finish a song and your career. And we've all been there and been around those people and been those people. I say that without judgment, as sometimes finishing is the hardest piece, you know. So, you know, when you say going by feel, it's just like, What do I think will feel cool having the confidence to be like, I think that's cool. Or I don't have a good reason not to trust myself. Yeah. Maybe? Like, I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't just trust that what I think is cool is cool. And no one else has to agree with me. But I think that's cool. So I'm just gonna do it. You know,

 

Mike Meiers  39:19  

but again, it's that maybe it's also to a bit of putting in that work and kind of that confidence in you and yourself and your tastes and your abilities that you can get to that point. And I think, yeah, we've all been there where it's the overthinking the over. Maybe I should move this court. Really, if you get rid of that court, is it going to make a world of difference? Is it really going to make us go? Oh, maybe it might, but most likely, we're just going to be like, Okay, you change the court.

 

Speaker 2  39:47  

Yeah. And I think the biggest question around that is, okay, well, what are you going to sing over it? Let's go on and make it such a different experience for the listener because I could come up with these chords and until someone's singing something over it's arbitrary because it's gonna be the melody that will help. You know, it's the, it's the relationship between the chord and the melody that's going to be pivotal, like, you know, so I'm trying to set up chords that imply a certain melody and feel like so when you hear the melody, it's like, that all feels cohesive and belongs, you know, and if someone's trying to find a value that's not working, we have to change the melody. If the melody and isolation is called, then we will change the cord so that it's supporting it better. You know what I mean? So, I'm not, I'm not saying it's always right. But until someone starts a melody, the chords are kind of arbitrary, you know, and if you're not modulating keys, then it could be a two chord, or four chord or a six chord, you know, and the melody would probably work great over all of them. And you get to decide like, what's the implication of that? Like, what does it mean emotionally, if I hit the six chord instead of a two chord, like, explore that? Well, what do you think it means I know what it means to me, I know what happens if I land on the four, or the six or the two, even though the same melody can work on all those chords, I know what it feels like, the kind of strength or sort of suppleness or sadness or whatever, like, you know what you can imply, but everyone is writing songs need to figure out against this melody note what chord implies what, you know, what does that make me feel? what's the implication, and then you make those decisions for yourself. We may agree on some of what those things mean, we might disagree on what some of those things mean, fine, you know? Perfect, right? I mean, it's just about what you think is cool. When you're, if it's your song, if you're making a song, do what you think is cool.

 

Mike Meiers  41:30  

I love that idea. Because people are wondering, is there an only right way? Or is this the right way? And it's like, there's multiple ways of looking, as you said, Because music can be subjective how I feel, and what I think is great may not necessarily be to your tastes, what I may think is great, and what they want for the brief, may contradict like, it may be different, and they're asking for something. Yeah, and I have to do while this isn't a me thing, this is a service thing right now. So you know what? Cool, I'm gonna do it, you know?

 

Speaker 2  41:59  

Yeah, those contexts are important, aren't they? Like, if you've got a brief then it's like, yes, you want to bring yourself to it, but follow the brief. You know, like, if you want to get the land, if you want to land, the placement and follow the break, you know, but I think if there was gonna be a right way, it's probably do what you love, do something you love, like, I remember working on songs and kind of second guessing things, and then trying to make it so that it would land and making stuff that's real on the nose, and then the two things can happen. One, you make a song that doesn't land, because it's so on the nose, and then you're like, that was a waste of time. And I hate the song anyway. The worst thing is that it does land and blows the hell up. And now you're constantly reminded of the thing you made that you hate. That worked. And you're like, you know, you've probably seen those bands that they never want to play their songs because they didn't write and they didn't love it. That became a massive hit. And now 20 years later, they're still touring the world and the fans will tear down the stadium if they don't play this song that none of the guys on stage want to play. Like the worst thing you can do is have success with a song you don't love.

 

Mike Meiers  43:09  

I think I heard the band that did the theme to friends. They said that they were like I wish we just the Rembrandt's? Yeah, the Rembrandt's that they were just like, Yeah, I think they were not the first ones for consideration. I think it was the Gin Blossoms was the first ones. And they were like, no, no, I do this. But they weren't sure. And now they're just like, Man, I really kind of wish we didn't because that's it.

 

Speaker 2  43:32  

I mean, yeah. Careful what you wish for, you know. So anyway, yeah, I mean, people might be like, yeah, be happy to be complaining and be the Rembrandt's worth millions of dollars. It's like, I know, but like, you only care about the millions of dollars because you don't have it, but they have it and they hate their life. Because they have to do stuff. They hate to get it. Like it's like, I'd rather just do my thing. You know, like, yeah, so anyway, that's interesting, for sure. But loving what you do is so important in music, you know, because we talked about AI too, right? Like, I think that's the component that will make musicians and songwriters endure as because I can copy the tropes and the formulas and all that so they can rip off all the formulaic stuff. But I was talking to an incredible songwriter today, Dennis Cook, who's a part of song house, you know, in Nashville, doing amazing stuff. And he was just talking about how those guys and I hope it's okay that I'm sharing the story, but he was saying that the guys in the room were like fighting for the song. And they were like, no, but it feels wrong. And it felt like they were fighting for the math. And they were fighting. They were sitting in the studio talking about a car. And Dennis was like, I get that but I'm sitting in the car. And I'm like, Oh, dude, you know, like he is like he is trying to it's an authenticity thing. And that really spoke to me like he's an incredible songwriter and just a beautiful soul you know? And different so I mean, all of that stuff to say you know, authenticity and being unafraid just I mean, it's not about being unafraid. It's actually okay. You might be afraid, but just do it anyway, of bringing your best self bringing what you have to say bringing your story, bringing your taste, just bring all of who you are into everything you're doing. Like, that's how to make a career. That's how to make something special happen with your music, you know, because the AI thing I'm not convinced can make something special. I might be wrong, I don't know. But yeah, I do know that people who put themselves into the art into their life, into their relationships into their story are far more rewarding to be around and, you know, far more inspiring to talk to and their songs are probably arguably better. And I think they genuinely seem probably more content with what they're doing, because they're not leaving anything. You know, off the table. They're just giving it what they've got. They're not holding back, you know?

 

Mike Meiers  45:53  

Yeah, I agree. I think it's a form. But you know, it can't give that the human authenticity and kind of like that human story in that relatability that we love about creation, or the weird out of the box things like, maybe it checks the boxes, like the mix is great. And this is all the key hit words, but it's just like, then there are things that sometimes we're just like, you know, we do randomly, like, I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who and anytime he encounters like, the cyber men, they go that that is illogical. Why would you because it's the human thing. It's just like, and he was like, that's what's great about it, you wouldn't think about that. But I find Yeah, it's that's, yeah, it's the human element, all everything that you've mentioned in your entire story about like, jumping in taking chances. This is how I pivot. That was your story. There's not a robot that can do exactly that. This is how you create a life like this in music, because it's so it's not a linear journey. It's kind of its twists and turns all over the place.

 

Speaker 2  46:54  

Yeah. I mean, I also relate to that med journey stuff, right? I think someone said, and I think it's true, it's like, people aren't taking pictures, that med journey, which if you don't know what that is, that said AI picture generator for the people listening, but it's like, you know, and I use that stuff to make little cover images for singles or whatever is dope, you plug stuff in, it can make all kinds of rad stuff, I love it, I can photoshop it afterwards and blend it and put some title on it and feels like a vibe is cool. But no one's taking that and putting it in a gallery and selling it for 30 grand, it's a different thing. It's so serves a purpose, right. And for me as someone who sometimes needs graphics for singles, and I mean, I have some background and graphics and stuff so I can cook stuff up. But it's fun plugging in a prompt into mid June you have a cook up a picture and be like, That's a vibe, I can use that, you know, but I think there's an element of that with AI for songs, there'll be a thing where it's like, you might get some starting lines or something like that could just get the ball rolling. Cool. But, but like I say, with the mid journey, no one's hanging that out for 25 grand and I don't think that the AI song is gonna be like a Eleanor Rigby. I mean, or, you know, something that's just a substantial, incredible song might be capable of writing something that's more pop and something that is more formulaic, potentially. And I don't say that to diminish pop, but I think you know, Max Martin, I mean, I still think Max has written some incredible pop songs. I'm not diminishing that. But I think something that is born out of something that's a lot more analytical, and it still has a lot of heart. But I think the analytical part, I think that's probably where the AI can go and make inroads and be a creative tool. But I think it's a fascinating conversation around that application of that stuff. But I think real stories by real humans with real pain and real struggles coming out and a song as is never not going to be special. I guess time will tell. I guess time will tell. But yeah, yeah.

 

Mike Meiers  48:50  

I mean, maybe 30 years, there's gonna be one in the Louvre, we'll go to France. There's the AI. Yeah, dude. If somebody's listening to this, and they're like, I love this. And I need to take the first step, what would you say is the first thing to do and kind of that next step of whatever they want to do, whether it's booking that CO right, whether it is traveling, or you know, like buckling down and opening up that, you know, their door for the first time, and like, I'm gonna start recording my own stuff.

 

Speaker 2  49:19  

There's something unique in all of us that I think the world would be better for hearing the world would be a better place. There's something inside of you that you've yet to share that the world would be better if you shared. I mean, I believe that I think that each of us have something to contribute that only we can contribute. And I think for me, I really want to continue to finding out what that is and keep learning how to share and keep having keep developing the courage to share because I think I can humbly offer the best of what I can do and hope that the world has slightly improved by me doing that and my life and prove to you And I think that when we all commit to that, I think we do make the world better. You know, and I think that step can be really scary. It doesn't mean we're gonna go write some hit song. I mean, I've never done that. But I've had an amazing career of ups and downs and ins and outs and twists and turns, and it's amazing life, you know, and I look forward to the next 50 to be like, what comes next? You know, and I think just believing that, yeah, there's something that you can find in yourself that's worth sharing and just treating it not like, I'm under pressure to make some incredible thing. Just just go and be you and have the courage to find out what that is and how to express that and have the courage to take that first step, whatever that is. And if you're trying to be a songwriter, write a song, start just begin like, what have you possibly got to lose? Like far out?

 

Mike Meiers  50:47  

Dude, this was awesome. Thanks for for hanging in. Jeff. This was such a good conversation. I feel like there's so many Instagram I have, like all these quotes, where I'm just like, dang, that was a good one. I was like, I was trying to like write down these little minute mark. That was a good one. That was a good one. That was a good. Thanks. This was awesome. Thanks for being here, man.

 

Speaker 2  51:07  

Thank you for having me, bro. I'm really stoked with what you're doing. empowering people to do. This stuff is huge. Like it's huge.

 

Mike Meiers  51:19  

And that does it for this week's episode. It was edited and produced by Chris Mathias. I'm Mike Myers. Thanks for listening.

 

Mike Meiers 0:00
Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the Songwriting for Guitar Podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career with you love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Hey friends, Mike Meiers here with song rank for guitar podcast episode number 78. Riding the Wave of Change with Geoff Duncan. Now in this episode, I talked to New Zealand born producer songwriter, multi instrumentalist, Jeff Duncan, and we're going to talk about exactly that, riding that wave of change, because the one thing I took away from this conversation was, he is always moving on to that next thing, he is so well versed because he's generated millions of streams, he has appeared in the Billboard charts, his music has been heard on countless networks for countless brands. And in this episode, we are going to talk about change. How do you make those transitions, different points within your life where you move on to the next thing, because with Jeff, he's had a colorful life in terms of careers and the things that he's done. I think this is super inspiring, especially if you're someone on the verge of making a transition, thinking about making a change. If you think you want to learn that new idea in production, if you want to dive into licensing a little bit more, maybe you want to take a chance and visit that Music City, see what it's like to to be there and figure out maybe this is a place I should move. This is an episode you need to listen to. So we're gonna dive into it right now. Episode number 78. riding the wave of change with Jeff Duncan.

Oh man, Geoff, this is I'm super pumped to have you here. Because you know, I came into recommendation then it was cool to just kind of like do a little digging. And then when we were talking, you're like, Oh, I'm in Nashville. And I'm like, where? And then you told me I was like, That's by me. It's just so funny. How, you know? It's Yes, it's a vast world. There's lots of people, but it's amazing how sometimes you're like, really close to people. You don't even realize?

Unknown Speaker 2:24
Yeah, totally. I mean, you can't get away with anything. Put it that way.

Mike Meiers 2:28
No, no, you can't, you can't get away with shit. But you know, we're not here about getting away with stuff we're talking about. I know, you've just got a cool, a very cool background and your story to me, because you're originally from New Zealand. You know, even in your backyard in one of your bylaws. It's like, you know, from Australia, to Hong Kong to China, Indonesia, Canada, Sweden, all the way to Nashville. I mean, can we talk about some of the in between, you know, so you're raised that, you know, originally from, you know, New Zealand, but was traveling kind of a big thing. And music is, you know, is it not necessarily a big thing within New Zealand?

Geoff Duncan 3:04
Well, I mean, I think a lot of people are into music, and there's a lot of great music made in New Zealand, you know, and a lot of super talented people. I think, the me, I was trying to do stuff that was harder to do in New Zealand, you know, what I mean? Like, straight pop music, which now I think you can do it from anywhere, as we're seeing and so many cool pop music makers from New Zealand, you know, but it was definitely harder to do that, you know, unless you wanted to play on jingles. Like get down to the pizza shop, you know, like, and I was like, I don't know if I want to do that, you know, now, like, I want to make songs that people hear that go on the radio, whatever. But I mean, I kind of got my start in high school bands, you know, and play bass and sang in a band. And, you know, and then toured and a Christian band just around schools and stuff and just had a lot of gigs on the road kind of period of my life. And it was during that I actually met Paul Mabry, who, you know, we talked about that sound and the drum sample stuff. And so him and I met in 1992. So I mean, a while ago now, you know, so we've been friends for a long time. And then mid late 90s, I moved to China and played guitar for the Hard Rock Cafe and Gong Joe in southern China. You know, I had friends who were doing that gig and they were like, Oh, this guy's leaving. Would you want to do it? And I was like, Yeah, that sounds awesome. Okay, you got to learn these 500 songs and all these dance moves. And you know, and I basically rehearse the bet with the band like one or two days before I went to China to play. I played on New Year's Eve was my first show and gong show at the Hard Rock so like a met probably the biggest night of the year. And so I'm walking on stage, vaguely knowing the songs you know, I can't

Mike Meiers 4:39
imagine you know, one thing playing but then being like, show us the dance move again here. What do I have to do? Like?

Speaker 2 4:45
I don't know if you've seen me dots. You haven't. But like, yeah, I was I felt bad for the people of China to have to watch that. But I mean, you get through it, you know, but it's funny because I remember the day after I signed the contract to go to China. I tried to get out of it. I was like, I got coffee, I don't know if I want to go and they wouldn't let me out of it. They're like not, I got no time to get anyone else now, so you have to do it. And it was the best thing like because I was like, Man that feels really big. And like not you have to do it. So it's perfect. So I went did it and learned a lot and played a lot of music and got better at guitar and just a lot of rhythm playing. And you're playing everything from algebra and jazz stuff through to like literally Enter Sandman. So it's just the whole range of stuff, a lot of pop stuff like and you had, you had to learn 10 new songs a week, and half of them had to be in like Chinese or Korean or whatever, for the visiting business people who would visit the hotel. So I mean, that was an intense but fun season. And then I did it again in Indonesia working for Shangri La Hotel, too. So it was kind of like I lived in a pool bar and just had an epic tan and played music, it was kind of awesome. And then I came back to New Zealand. And it was really difficult to work commercially. And I was playing in covers bands and doing that kind of stuff. But it wasn't like, there wasn't opportunity to be like, play on a Michael Jackson record or play on like be a session guy playing on pop records that were just wasn't the thing. So, you know, after a while of, you know, making music and various forms, I worked in visual effects for a wall and head of visual effects company. And that was fun. And I mean, I love that stuff, too technical, technical and creative. Stuff I love. So music production and visual effects, to me have a lot of similarities. You know, and I love that stuff. And working on it was super fun. I learned a lot and you know, and then I turned 40. And I was like, I really want to get back into music. So that was 2011. So I moved here in 2012. Okay, so

Mike Meiers 6:37
like, there's so much that so I think I think number one, but I just love the casual, like I was hearing that was here. But it's interesting how you committed to playing guitar in, you know, and you were like, oh, I need to get out of this. But then you kind of that ended up being the best experience. But I can't imagine, you know, for someone for a decade when I taught guitar, you know, you know, constantly learning new songs, teaching new songs, deconstructing new songs, it's just basically that in itself and then trying to replicate and then play is a school in itself. There's no question like that then just to me, because you're deconstructing the process, but you're listening to all of it. So it's like you're absorbing. So you were the pre Spotify, you are essentially Spotify before Spotify. Well, you had to know all these different different styles and different things.

Speaker 2 7:27
Yeah. And you know, from a guitar player perspective, you know, you do get good at that process. Like I used to be able to learn the whole set by sitting by the pool with my cassette Walkman and the bandleader Pat would distribute the tapes with all the 10 songs for the weekend, we're all just have to learn them. And I just sit by the pool and listen to him. And I'd be like, I don't know what key it's in. But I just use numbers, and I could just remember it and play it. And then I would go to the rehearsal. And we used to finish the show at like, 2am wait till the bar cleared out at 3am. So have a drink or get some food or whatever. And then we'd rehearse till like five or six in the morning when because the venue is soundproof. So you can rehearse and not disturb the guests in the hotel. But you know, and so we would rehearse the stuff. And I'd be like, just on it. You know what I mean? Not because I'm so good. It's just more like you get into that muscle of being like, I just know the sections. You sort of make little Lego pieces in your mind for the song of I know the chords for the verse. And of course for the pre and then you make other LEGO that says, intro, verse pre chorus pose. I mean, and you just have that. And so once you know it, you know it, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it's it's a fun process. And that's pretty cool. Yeah, it can be daunting. But once you're once it's your day to day life, you know, and then you're learning all these backing vocals in Chinese. I don't speak Chinese. I mean, you sort of learning it as you go. And I mean, was funny, I was back in Shanghai in 2019, playing a show with a really dear friend of mine who had a song and a massive video game over there. And it was like the world camps. And so, you know, so we went over to play that song at the opening ceremony for the world champs of this online video game, which is only played in China, right? Honor of kings, the only place to play it is China. So it's like, it's like the World Series of baseball. It's only played in America. It's like honor of Kings is only played in China, as far as I'm aware. Anyway, there's like, 4 million people watching this thing online. You know what I mean? So there's 15,000 people in the state and we play one song and the production like the live production had all this, you know, virtual reality and augmented reality on the screen. So they were panning cameras and there was stuff on the TV that wasn't there was all that I mean, incredible production value was crazy. So but even going back there after all those years and hearing the language and just being able to say stuff and be the odd and earth I remember that. So it was kind of fascinating to go back, you know, but yeah, so the process of the guitar stuff like, and, you know, learn like I learned Broadway by George Benson, in the middle of the show by watching the bass players fingers and trying to keep up you know what I mean? Because I'd never heard that song. You know, don't, don't, don't don't and I'm just and then he's like nodding his head to the right, which I'm assuming means we're modulating and so he goes up a half there think Don't say you're just watching it in real time, and I I was playing songs which I'd never heard that might have been some piano ballad. And they would be like, it's in B minor, there's a solo, I'll kick you, when you play a solo just be like, Steve, look, if they play a melodic solo with lots of chorus, and sweet, I guess we're playing this thing. I'm just bubbling along with a clean little sound. And he kicks me and I just play a big melodic solo, I'm just going for it. I don't know how the solo goes. And then we're back out into the, I just You just make it up. And it's just like, just looked like you know what you're doing. And off you go. And I must have played Hotel California, like, I don't know, 500 times, you know, I mean, it's like,

Mike Meiers 10:31
just that idea of that, okay, hey, this is we're gonna give you the nod when to go and then you got to play this thing. Or it's just like, I have to watch this change. And I Oh, we're doing this. So it's a lot of that visualization that feels so it makes sense that you then when you got home, you were like, Oh, cool. I'm gonna start this company, mixing visuals and sound because you're you were already. I feel like when you're listening to music, there's like a visualization to it as well. Because he said, you know, you're thinking about chord progressions, number progression. So even though you may not know the key, you're like, I think it's a 145. And then we're at a six, I think that's a three, it makes sense that suddenly you then transition this and then transition into licensing, which is all about just like, hey, here's the feel. Let's make it up. It's not a foreign concept to you.

Speaker 2 11:17
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think you're right, there's definitely a correlation between the emotion of music and the emotion of images. And you know, what, I think once you understand one, you can sort of apply that to being like, well, what emotion is the image evoking? And how do I support that with the music that I'm trying to make? You know what I mean, which I think is where licensing, you can really shine as to if you're interested in really delving into the emotion of the story, you have you have a palette to play with, you know, so yeah, I mean, I really love the dark cinematic stuff that I have a project with my 18 year old daughter code holding. And it's like this dark Nordic kind of cinematic stuff. And that's like, very much down there. All we want to feel this real tangible, spookiness or whatever, you know, and we're making all these stupid dark lyrics, everything. We're just laughing our heads off, because it's just so funny and stupid, but it's just, you know, she'll be like, I got this lyric, what do you think is like wind on the water blood in the well, and it's like stone dark, and oh, my god. It's so perfect. Like, where's this come from? You're 18. You know, she's probably 17 or 16 when we made that song, but it's like, you know, fun fun, just, as you say, correlating the emotion of the music with the emotion of the picture and all that. So yeah, I mean, I guess it all does tie together in that way.

Mike Meiers 12:28
It's interesting. You said, like, I turned 40. And I realized, Oh, I really want to do this. And then you made that jump. I think there's so many people that have this preconceived notion that when you reach a certain age, that's over. Like, it stops, like, you know, music closes its store, I'm sorry, you have to be this, you know, below this age. And there's so many just preconceived notions. But again, it's kind of like when you were like, well, I guess, I'm gonna go play guitar here. You jumped in, and you made that jump to like, a brand new country and just like to start doing this? Well, they'll

Speaker 2 13:02
always be some reason to say no, you know, they'll always be a reason you can use to talk yourself out of whatever you think you might want to do with your life, you know, and they'll always be someone else, they'll be prepared to try and talk you out of what you're doing for their own reasons, whether they're cognizant of it or not, like whether or not it's you chasing your dreams as now highlighting to them that they work in a cubicle, and they're not chasing their dreams. So they're gonna tell you, Oh, man, I don't know if that's a good idea. I'd hate to see a follow up like that it comes out of this place of concern, and maybe genuine but I think sooner or later, you have to decide that your life is gonna be what you decide to make it, you know, and I mean, I go through loops of feeling like, Man, I'm out of my depth. I don't know what I'm doing. And then something happens, or I just follow my heart or my instinct and just make something that I'm like, and then that's the thing that works. And I'm like, Cool. I'll follow that, you know, and I mean, it's not like, I don't want to sound like, oh, man, this is the answer. It's like, no, but I think that you will not find the answer without exhibiting some courage and making some decisions for yourself to be like, Well, I'm not prepared to stay where I am. So a necessary move is for me to go somewhere where I'm not, you know, to find what I'm looking for, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah, for me, I didn't know what it would mean to be in America, I came here. I'd been working with a musician in New Zealand who had made, we've made some albums together, he'd done really well. And we'd played massive festivals together. And we're very tight friends used to go surf together. And, you know, he had gotten signed to a US record label and was over here. And I'd made noises about wanting to get out of visual effects into the one he kind of play guitar with me on the road while you figure out where you fit. And that was, you know, came in 2012 and got off the road at the end of 2015. And then hit the ground running as a songwriter and producer and obviously still playing guitar on all the stuff that I do. And, you know, yeah, there's no way to separate the fear of it. You know, like, we're sort of like, you're talking about making that jump and just doing it it's like, it's not without trepidation. It's not like, you know, Amen. I know, I just know, I didn't have some innate belief that this was the right thing, and I was gonna crush it. You know, I don't, I don't think if that's what you're waiting for, you may want to reevaluate that, because you'll never do anything like that degree of confidence probably means you're still too far in your comfort zone to find really what you're looking for, you know, I think you have to stretch yourself to really be like, oh, man, I am doing something now, you know, there's very little gold to be found in your comfort zone, you know, it's sitting in front of a TV is not going to, you're not going to find what you're looking for, you know,

Mike Meiers 15:34
I think people need to rewind to those past couple of things that you just said, like, but it's true. It's, it's funny, if you think you feel super confident, that may be a signal, like you're still in the comfort zone, you're not being stretched a little bit. And, yeah, when you're in a space that you know, really well, and you're probably not gonna find anything new, because it's all Yeah, or,

Speaker 2 15:58
or you're really in your sweet spot, and it's all coming supernatural. It's exactly where you're supposed to be. I mean, I don't know, like, you know, they both go hand in hand, don't they? Like, the polar opposites? Can both it can be both. And, you know, they can just both be right? You know, I don't know, I don't want to discourage people who are like, No, but I'm not scared, I'm really in my sweet spot, stuff going amazing, like, perfect, you know, do that. For me, that wasn't what it was, for me, the greatest breakthroughs for myself have come out of periods of extreme discomfort, you know, professionally, personally, and my personal growth and my professional growth, it's like, it's had to the head, I've had to have some grit to get through some things to get to the next thing, you know, and I'm 51 now. So I mean, I've had a bit of time to learn from some of this stuff. And I'm the only said that because I needed say that. I mean, I look after myself, you know, and I'm sort of motivated to live long and be happy and, you know, try and bring the best version of myself for as long as I can to the world and my kids and, you know, for myself, and so I'm motivated to live long and try and live well, and just be really happy and productive and excited about what I'm doing. You know, but yeah, it's not without its challenges for sure. And musics a tough road. However, your skin like, you know, your you know, it's it was never going to be the easiest path. You know,

Mike Meiers 17:13
it's funny that you mentioned grit, one of my favorite books is Grit by Angela Duckworth. And she talks about like that idea of that the thing that is the biggest payoff, or the thing that has the most reward actually doesn't come easy. At the beginning, it's actually really tough. And there's a lot of points where you can just drop off, where you can just just stop. But it's those that kind of stick with it with that grit that kind of look at the problem, and the thing that they're facing, and you know, they're, they feel the intimidation, but they're more intrigued on how to solve it, and figure it out and like work around it, as opposed to just being like, hands in the air. I just don't know, you know, I guess there's no way to solve it, I might as well just stay where I'm at.

Speaker 2 18:00
I will never judge anyone from being like, this is really, really hard. I'm actually gonna go and get a job doing something else. You know what I mean? There's absolutely no shame in making those decisions. You know, for me, it's more like, in times of sort of adversity and discomfort, I get to a place where I'm through the part where I'm really just upset and in a turmoil, and I get to a place of where I'm just genuinely curious as to whether I can actually get through this, you know, like, can I actually make this work like, and then it becomes like, Alright, let's go, You know what I mean? And that's been in a number of areas of my life, you know what I mean? And it's really like, if you allow yourself to become curious, and that might be, I'm trying to learn how to sweet pick these arpeggios. And like, because it's really difficult. And I'm just curious if I just keep going, well, I get better. Well, the answer is yes, you will like I mean, if I can sweep back arpeggios, and anyone can, because I'm clumsy as anything. But this guitar stuff that applies this music, career stuff that applies this, do I have the courage to share my idea and my first I'm in a co write for the first time and I'm terrified of just getting shot down and looking stupid. Of course you are. That's the first time you've been in the CO right but just You're there to write a song, write a great song, bring all of yourself to things that you put yourself into, don't hold back, there's this idea that, you know, people have, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna give everything because then if it fails, I didn't really give it all I've got, you know, so I'll be able to shepherd myself from knowing that I actually failed. I didn't really try. So I've protected myself from failure. Well, you still failed, you fail to really bring yourself to it. And then if it didn't go where you want it, you still fail. You're just deluding yourself in that situation. So it's like, you'll never regret bringing all of yourself to a situation, you know, and just bringing your best you'll never recover. And if you do, then just you need to sit down and talk to yourself about that because there's never a good reason to regret that I should say like, there will never be a good reason to regret bringing everything of who you are into what you're doing, whether that's your guitar practice. Yeah. boring scales and metronomes your code, practical it learning a song, writing a song, doing your dishes, making your bed when you first get up in the morning, doing your pushup looking after your health, like caring for your pet, like I mean, all of it, you know, all of it, just bring your best like, sounds really, really easy. And sometimes it's very difficult to do that, you know,

Mike Meiers 20:20
what you're also talking to is just bringing your best and just your authentic self. And I think people are really scared to do that. Because either from experience they did, and someone was like, you know, that kind of like snapped at them made a comment. And then again, that self-consciousness that fear, kind of like we kind of pull inside a little bit, well, I'll give a little bit. But really, when you do the thing that you're that you love, or that moment where you feel like you're kind of in that elements, because that authentic self has really shine through. And even when it's scary, you're still like allowing that to happen.

Speaker 2 20:55
Oh, yeah, life is scary stuff is scary, like, planning stuff. Scary, you know? And if, if you are going to let that be the thing that stops you doing stuff, you'll never do anything? And then you have something to regret, you know?

Mike Meiers 21:15
Hey, it's Mike. And I just wanted to jump in the middle of this podcast to ask you if you've been listening to this for quite a while, because here we are episode number 78. And you know, you haven't left us a review on Apple podcast. Could you do that right now, because that would be huge. It could just be like talking about your favorite episode. Because believe me, reviews matter. We read each one. And it helps bring notoriety and awareness of our podcast and brings more exposure. So it really helps us out a ton. So if you've been listening to us for a very long time, and you haven't done that yet, could you just take a moment right now, I truly do appreciate it. And I truly appreciate you continuing to listen and share this podcast. So without further ado, let's jump back in to this week's episode.

You know, you were on tour, you came here and then you planted roots in Nashville. I mean, how was it starting to build up? What is a fantastic career? I mean, we're talking millions of streams, you've got, you know, appeared in several Billboard charts, you know, awards placements, and various things that you do. And I mean, there's, you know, there's that sound design, there's that production element, there's the songwriting element, and then, you know, sampling. I mean, how has that process? How did that get started, especially when you're planning to help? You know, being in a Music City?

Speaker 2 22:39
Yes, I mean, so much. I might work as remote. But I think, being in the Music City and meeting the people that I met, you know, it's always the people isn't sort of relationships, you know, and I didn't, you know, you're talking about sampling. So yeah, I mean, I was I was helping that, that sound guys with that stuff. So there was Dustin who own that sound, Dustin, and I had met at a songwriting camp like years before and just become friends a couple years before that sound was a thing. And we just became friends. And we just were hanging out as mates. And, and I know, Paul since 1992, so we go way back. But we hadn't spent a whole lot of time together in Nashville since I've been here. And then they put out these drum samples. And I'm like, Well, hey, guys, well, I use logic, and I bundled them into a sampler, preset, because that's how I like to use drum samples. And I just sent them over and said, well, here you go. Give these to your community, if you want, this is how I like to use them. And then they were like, well, this is awesome. Do you want to help us do this, you know, and so that kind of pave the way to me sound designing packs and helping with implementing them into presets of various platforms and kind of building on top of what they were doing, which is essentially, here's some wav files, some one shots and some loops. And I was like, Man, I love using these as presets within a sampler or whatever. So this kind of helped facilitate some of the tech stuff and had a little team put together. And you know, and that was a really fun season, we fly around when I made a pack coat hanger. So we jumped on a private jet and flew to Denver and recorded drums in the hangar and had sushi and flew home. It was I mean, epic, you know, and just really, really good, good friends doing fun stuff together. So I mean, that was a hugely rewarding thing. And I love drums. I mean, I don't know, any producer engineer or whatever, who doesn't love messing around with recording and mixing and tweaking drums, you know. And so yeah, and I love to help people figure out what they can bring into sample library land, you know, and I've had this conversation a lot. And we see a lot of smaller companies springing up. There's lots of guys making dope stuff that's like, well, this is art that I make, and maybe it'll be useful to someone else, you know, and I think that's such a valid reason for looking at, you know, making sample libraries and stuff. So I love helping people navigate some of the how and why and what around making sample libraries you know, and I mean, that's just a piece of it. And then, you know, I mean, I write songs I have several songwriter collaborations that continue to pump songs over to Amsterdam like me My friend Jordan gross have written a bunch of stuff for him. And he's an incredible artist. He knows everyone is friends with all of those massive DJs. So we can get songs straight to the people not not via a&r and all that. And you know, the a&r guys report back and tell us what they need, but it's like, it's great. So we have this in vendor and single out at the moment with our friend unethical, vulnerable, that he's been playing all around the world at all festivals, and it's just been so cool. Making a song in this basement in Franklin and having it go, and the biggest dance DJ in the world makes it a smash, you know, and it's like, Man, this is so fun. You know, like, I never saw myself doing that. But it's just like, I've known Jordan for years. And we just started working together on stuff. And it's just kind of where it went, you know? And I think all of it is like that. So you could be like, well, you're just lucky, but it's almost like, well, everything good in life is luck. Everything bad in life is like, in a way, it's like you're not in control of like, what we think we are to the extent that we think we are you know what I mean? It's, you know, saying like, you know, oh, I got that job, I want it Well, that was kind of lucky, awesome. You, you were prepared for it. And it went your way? Well, that's all I'm saying. It's like, yeah, we're prepared for it. We've done the work, we know how to make a vocal sound good. We get better at writing songs, we can play some chords that sound cool together. And then we have an opportunity, we made something cool. And it wins, you know? So I think it's all like, more or less. You know,

Mike Meiers 26:19
I also see you It's interesting how you reached out to the guys for sampling. You were like, Hey, here's this thing that I'm doing with no it no strings of like, I'd like to do the it was just like, hey, I want to be of service and help.

Speaker 2 26:33
Sure. Yeah, yeah. Oh, dear friends of mine. Let me support what you're doing. You know, yeah.

Mike Meiers 26:37
And that's the thing too, it's almost, you know, those those relationships are so important. And it's, you know, sometimes we say like, Hey, just be a good hang, be a friend, be someone that you want to spend time with. Because I love. And it's the same with friends that I've had, they've brought me into things I brought them into, because it's like, you want to share it, you you don't want to hog this. Yeah. And you realize the value of bringing other people because they again, it's just their perspective. And the thing, there's little Zona genius that you're like, Well, with this and me, this is amazing.

Speaker 2 27:13
Yeah, we could we could do something cool. Yeah, yeah. Or I'm just friends with them. And I'm not trying to get in on the thing. And then they're not really trying to get on to my thing. We're just friends, not every friendship with someone in the music business needs to be leveraged, you know, like, it's like, just following that organic process of being like, what's serving this situation, and what's serving the song, what's serving this friendship relationship, or whatever, you know, and some of the best things. I mean, all of the best things in my life have just come about through, you know, a relationship or a friend, and then you end up in a situation that leads to something because you've just got people in your life who are special to you, you know, and I mean, I think that's the best way for these things to happen. And nothing feels contrived. Nothing feels like you're playing to an agenda. It's just like, of course, cool stuff happens. I just have cool people in my life. And we're all just doing cool stuff, you know, like, just be around people who you love, like, you know, what sounds so obvious. But it's, it's really important.

Mike Meiers 28:09
You know, some people don't, and I remember getting one. I had like a mentoring session once with someone way back in the day. And I was like, he was like, wow, even if you write a song with someone, and you don't necessarily like them, if it's a good song, keep on writing. And I was like, Really, I was like, I feel like I wouldn't want to write. Like, why would I want to do that to myself. And to me, it's like, what you're describing too, is like, especially some of those things that are built on friendships, you're not, you know, seeking, like, it has to be this, my agenda is like, we're gonna write a song, and eventually, you're gonna pull me into this thing it's like, or we could just be friends. And it may not happen till years later. And that's fine, or it may not happen. I just like you and I like what you're about. And that sort of energy, whatever you choose to call it vibe that you put out is what makes people go like, ah, that'd be great. It'd be great to work with him. I think, you know, I need to pull him in on this. As opposed to like, man, every time I'm with him, I feel like Kai is like a shakedown. He's kind of like, Hey, give me this thing.

Speaker 2 29:06
Ya know, no one wants to feel like that. And then you're not even if that's your attitude, you're probably not even really friends with the person. So, I mean, I think authenticity is really important when you're, you're not hanging out with people for what they can get you. It's like, you just find your people find your people and, you know, foster that friendship and collaborate where it fits and don't force it and, you know, great things that you know, and we grow together to like, I mean, I listened to some songs that I made in 2010 2011, before I came here, you know, tracks that I was working on, and I listened. I mean, I moved across to the other side of the world to be a producer and write songs, right. And I played guitar for a while to facilitate the song. I listened to those things, and they were horrible. Like, I wasn't really like, you know, if I landed in 2012, and someone said, Oh, well, you've got a chance to work on the new Maroon Five single I would have shanked that like, I wouldn't have been really I didn't know what I was. Doing stuff sounds terrible, you know, not all the ideas are terrible, but man, no idea about how to make a mix sound good, really, you know, like, I'm not trying to be unkind to myself, but it's like you grow and so not getting ahead of yourself doing the work putting in the time to be ready for what's for you like, it's important, you know? So, yeah, I mean, I think all that stuff matters. And it's, it's gonna change the way your career unfolds, if you're able to do the work, not trying to take shortcuts, care for the people you're in relationship with, so that then when they meet someone, if they introduce you, and lead you somewhere cool, but like that, you're not putting the pressure on those relationships, you're just doing great stuff. And people are attracted by that. And you're looking after yourself, and you're walking in with your head held high, and you know who you are, and you're in a good headspace and you're taking care of your mental well being and your emotional well being, you're taking care of your musicality and your chops and your ideas. And you can play in the pocket and you've done the work, you know, across all these things, so that when you come, you have something to offer that's genuinely like, oh, man, I see this guy walk in and he's got something, I want to be around that energy, you know, because we all have some in our brain, you know, we all do you know,

Mike Meiers 31:11
you that you said you listened to some of your songs from then you were like, oh, man, they're there. And you know, for some people will be like, Well, what's missing? What what plugins did you get what what? But it's like, all what was missing was all these experiences that got you in a position to where things got better. And like you stay consistent within you can stayed consistent with all those things that you said that, yeah, naturally, you fast forward. And it's like a war, you know, worlds part difference from where you were and where you are now, but you're still continuing that because, you know, then in the next five years, you're gonna look back and be like, Oh, that work. But you know what, I would probably do something different now, because you've gained all this different insight because you've allowed the process to expand and change,

Speaker 2 31:55
right? And you evolve as a creative person, too. So, you know, when I was learning guitar as a teenager, all I cared about was Paul Gilbert and Jason Becker, like all I cared was about what shredding like ripping, I could totally shred, but I'd never played a chord. And like, I've never actually played chords, like a song, you know. And I remember being like, because when I was in high school, I was playing bass, I wasn't playing guitar, and I switched to guitar after high school. And I was rapping. As I remember, learning a G chord is cool, you know, like, I could already read, like, I could just riff along with records, like, totally melt your face off, and I couldn't play, you know, wonderwool probably, you know what I mean? It's like, crazy. So I say that from the point of view, yes, I have hunted for the shortcuts. And I have, I can strip I can't even play a song. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to be in a band. I don't know how to play funky rhythm stuff that feels good. So people will dance and it feels great, you know? So it's just the same thing with writing songs in production, like just making sure that you're well rounded and really like figuring yourself out as a musician. So you have something to offer, you know,

Mike Meiers 33:05
I'd be interested to see how has your your listening transformed, because it's funny you mentioned when you were, you know, working in that cover band, you they would hand you that tape and you put in the Walkman you'd listen, how was your listening now? Like, how has that changed or evolved a little bit when you listen to music, that you're interested in things that are just drawing you in? A great question.

Speaker 2 33:25
I mean, I listen to so much different stuff. You know, like, I love atmospheric stuff. I love juice world. I love Post Malone, I love Skrillex especially all that new stuff. I love fried again, like, Man, I only came across through it again from my friend Solly in October. And I listened to it so much that by the end of the year, my Spotify wrapped I was in the top point 1% of his listeners, I was just like, it was all I was looking, I was just absolutely addicted to it if it was just such great music, you know. So I have a very eclectic taste. And so I can listen to Skrillex not analyzing it just being like, this is the vibe. Or I can listen to the all that pitched up hand drum is so circle, I mean, you they can be analytical, or you can just kind of be chill and be like, I'm just enjoying it, you know, and I probably am constantly phasing between analyzing it and just being in and enjoying it, you know, and some stuff I don't really analyze. I'm just like, this is a vibe. I'm not trying to understand it. I just want to experience it as a music fan. Yeah. And then maybe once I've just had that experience experience will be like what's making that have that what's making it have that impression on me, you know, try and analyze it a little more or whatever. But I don't I'm certainly not just been like, oh, that's the forecourt, you know, I mean, you know what I mean? I can I can still listen as if ignorant, you know, like, I don't mean that the bad way but just oblivious is probably better. Like I can listen in a way where I'm oblivious to what's going on technically or musically and just enjoy the emotion and feeling of the song, you know, like Vancouver sleep clinic or something like that. It's like, I don't have to transcribe it in my head or whatever it is, you know, it's couple of songs. I just love, you know, and it's like, man, it's I just

Mike Meiers 35:00
flipped the switch, essentially, yes, go in between those things, which is awesome. Because

Speaker 2 35:05
otherwise I would lose the enjoyment of the music. I think if I was only ever analyzing it, I would miss the point of having music in my life where it's such a healing. Inspiring. Yeah, just an inspiring element of my life that I don't want to lose that, you know,

Mike Meiers 35:22
because if you lose that, it's like, I feel like then are you going to create things that are authentic?

Speaker 2 35:27
Yeah, I was gonna say, if I lose that I probably changed careers, you know, because I would lose the excitement for it if it was just all purely analytical. Because, I mean, when I'm making my songs, I don't just want to think, technically, I go by feel so much when I'm making a song. I'm like, oh, we should go to the I mean, I know the math, I know that. You know, I know the modes. I know the chord math, I know the stuff. And I can explain and justify whatever. But when I'm making a song, and I'm sitting here and the artist is vibing. And we're just going for it. I'm not thinking about that. I'm just literally responding. And my hands just go where they go. And I'm like, and I don't overthink everything. I mean, for an idea to settle and become the idea and become the song. The worst session for me is if I'm making a chord progression, and I've got four chords, and then someone's like, I wonder if that seven chord should I mean, it's just like, man, just come with something settle, you know, just, let's just let something settle this will be fine. You know, I think it's really important not to overthink everything, I think it's really important to go by feel and let ideas settle and coalesce. And then build on that so that you have a structure becoming tangible. You know, like, if you never let anything settle if nothing's ever. No, that's not it. That's not it. Let's go for lunch, and then nothing will ever be it. Like, you know, if that's not it, then what does it need to be? What are you hoping it would be like, people just get so in their head, and it's just like, let it settle, let something happen for a second before you decide it's not right. You know, and I've done that, too. I've done it too. So I'm not saying that from a high horse. I'm just like, it's really important to learn how to just let ideas settle and coalesce and become something, you know,

Mike Meiers 37:02
the one thing that you say, and I feel like I see this a lot. And I know, I get questions where people are like, what does that mean? Where you said, the feel, you know, I'm not necessarily when I'm adding us I'm not like, okay, from on this spectrum. Here's the dB of where we need to be. And we need to be under but I'm like, I'm going to add this in because it feels really right. And let's cut this because I want to feel like it needs to get like it's a lot of these words feel but like it works. And people are like, what does that mean? And it's like, I think it's partial, you've put in the work, but you're also allowing your instinct of where it should go, you're not kind of fighting that and being like, oh, it shouldn't go there. Because I should think about this. It's that fear based kind of thinking that creates things that don't always have a very cohesive feel, but feels a little predictable, feels a little choppy, or just something feels off.

Speaker 2 37:50
I'm saying yeah, no, I mean, and yeah, I think it's entirely subjective, like what I think feels awesome. Someone else might be like, Oh, that rubs me the wrong way. And I've definitely had things where people have wanted and sitting note, I'm like, oh, that just makes me physically uncomfortable. Because it's just such a sixth note against the one chord, you know, something that feels like a very weak, harmonic position to take. And I'm just like, ah, that's uncomfortable to me, you know, and sometimes they're right should be that but like, you know, I think it's entirely subjective. And you have to just kind of decide what you like, and have the confidence to be like, that feels good to me. I'm gonna do that. And then you don't have to question it again, necessarily, unless you're like down the tracks, like, can I beat that? Cool? I mean, can I beat it question is entirely valid and should be asked, whenever appropriate. But I think sometimes things settle. It's like, I could change it, I could make it different. Would it be better? Arguably, no, it's just gonna be different. And you can make it different all day forever, and never finish a song and your career. And we've all been there and been around those people and been those people. I say that without judgment, as sometimes finishing is the hardest piece, you know. So, you know, when you say going by feel, it's just like, What do I think will feel cool having the confidence to be like, I think that's cool. Or I don't have a good reason not to trust myself. Yeah. Maybe? Like, I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't just trust that what I think is cool is cool. And no one else has to agree with me. But I think that's cool. So I'm just gonna do it. You know,

Mike Meiers 39:19
but again, it's that maybe it's also to a bit of putting in that work and kind of that confidence in you and yourself and your tastes and your abilities that you can get to that point. And I think, yeah, we've all been there where it's the overthinking the over. Maybe I should move this court. Really, if you get rid of that court, is it going to make a world of difference? Is it really going to make us go? Oh, maybe it might, but most likely, we're just going to be like, Okay, you change the court.

Speaker 2 39:47
Yeah. And I think the biggest question around that is, okay, well, what are you going to sing over it? Let's go on and make it such a different experience for the listener because I could come up with these chords and until someone's singing something over it's arbitrary because it's gonna be the melody that will help. You know, it's the, it's the relationship between the chord and the melody that's going to be pivotal, like, you know, so I'm trying to set up chords that imply a certain melody and feel like so when you hear the melody, it's like, that all feels cohesive and belongs, you know, and if someone's trying to find a value that's not working, we have to change the melody. If the melody and isolation is called, then we will change the cord so that it's supporting it better. You know what I mean? So, I'm not, I'm not saying it's always right. But until someone starts a melody, the chords are kind of arbitrary, you know, and if you're not modulating keys, then it could be a two chord, or four chord or a six chord, you know, and the melody would probably work great over all of them. And you get to decide like, what's the implication of that? Like, what does it mean emotionally, if I hit the six chord instead of a two chord, like, explore that? Well, what do you think it means I know what it means to me, I know what happens if I land on the four, or the six or the two, even though the same melody can work on all those chords, I know what it feels like, the kind of strength or sort of suppleness or sadness or whatever, like, you know what you can imply, but everyone is writing songs need to figure out against this melody note what chord implies what, you know, what does that make me feel? what's the implication, and then you make those decisions for yourself. We may agree on some of what those things mean, we might disagree on what some of those things mean, fine, you know? Perfect, right? I mean, it's just about what you think is cool. When you're, if it's your song, if you're making a song, do what you think is cool.

Mike Meiers 41:30
I love that idea. Because people are wondering, is there an only right way? Or is this the right way? And it's like, there's multiple ways of looking, as you said, Because music can be subjective how I feel, and what I think is great may not necessarily be to your tastes, what I may think is great, and what they want for the brief, may contradict like, it may be different, and they're asking for something. Yeah, and I have to do while this isn't a me thing, this is a service thing right now. So you know what? Cool, I'm gonna do it, you know?

Speaker 2 41:59
Yeah, those contexts are important, aren't they? Like, if you've got a brief then it's like, yes, you want to bring yourself to it, but follow the brief. You know, like, if you want to get the land, if you want to land, the placement and follow the break, you know, but I think if there was gonna be a right way, it's probably do what you love, do something you love, like, I remember working on songs and kind of second guessing things, and then trying to make it so that it would land and making stuff that's real on the nose, and then the two things can happen. One, you make a song that doesn't land, because it's so on the nose, and then you're like, that was a waste of time. And I hate the song anyway. The worst thing is that it does land and blows the hell up. And now you're constantly reminded of the thing you made that you hate. That worked. And you're like, you know, you've probably seen those bands that they never want to play their songs because they didn't write and they didn't love it. That became a massive hit. And now 20 years later, they're still touring the world and the fans will tear down the stadium if they don't play this song that none of the guys on stage want to play. Like the worst thing you can do is have success with a song you don't love.

Mike Meiers 43:09
I think I heard the band that did the theme to friends. They said that they were like I wish we just the Rembrandt's? Yeah, the Rembrandt's that they were just like, Yeah, I think they were not the first ones for consideration. I think it was the Gin Blossoms was the first ones. And they were like, no, no, I do this. But they weren't sure. And now they're just like, Man, I really kind of wish we didn't because that's it.

Speaker 2 43:32
I mean, yeah. Careful what you wish for, you know. So anyway, yeah, I mean, people might be like, yeah, be happy to be complaining and be the Rembrandt's worth millions of dollars. It's like, I know, but like, you only care about the millions of dollars because you don't have it, but they have it and they hate their life. Because they have to do stuff. They hate to get it. Like it's like, I'd rather just do my thing. You know, like, yeah, so anyway, that's interesting, for sure. But loving what you do is so important in music, you know, because we talked about AI too, right? Like, I think that's the component that will make musicians and songwriters endure as because I can copy the tropes and the formulas and all that so they can rip off all the formulaic stuff. But I was talking to an incredible songwriter today, Dennis Cook, who's a part of song house, you know, in Nashville, doing amazing stuff. And he was just talking about how those guys and I hope it's okay that I'm sharing the story, but he was saying that the guys in the room were like fighting for the song. And they were like, no, but it feels wrong. And it felt like they were fighting for the math. And they were fighting. They were sitting in the studio talking about a car. And Dennis was like, I get that but I'm sitting in the car. And I'm like, Oh, dude, you know, like he is like he is trying to it's an authenticity thing. And that really spoke to me like he's an incredible songwriter and just a beautiful soul you know? And different so I mean, all of that stuff to say you know, authenticity and being unafraid just I mean, it's not about being unafraid. It's actually okay. You might be afraid, but just do it anyway, of bringing your best self bringing what you have to say bringing your story, bringing your taste, just bring all of who you are into everything you're doing. Like, that's how to make a career. That's how to make something special happen with your music, you know, because the AI thing I'm not convinced can make something special. I might be wrong, I don't know. But yeah, I do know that people who put themselves into the art into their life, into their relationships into their story are far more rewarding to be around and, you know, far more inspiring to talk to and their songs are probably arguably better. And I think they genuinely seem probably more content with what they're doing, because they're not leaving anything. You know, off the table. They're just giving it what they've got. They're not holding back, you know?

Mike Meiers 45:53
Yeah, I agree. I think it's a form. But you know, it can't give that the human authenticity and kind of like that human story in that relatability that we love about creation, or the weird out of the box things like, maybe it checks the boxes, like the mix is great. And this is all the key hit words, but it's just like, then there are things that sometimes we're just like, you know, we do randomly, like, I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who and anytime he encounters like, the cyber men, they go that that is illogical. Why would you because it's the human thing. It's just like, and he was like, that's what's great about it, you wouldn't think about that. But I find Yeah, it's that's, yeah, it's the human element, all everything that you've mentioned in your entire story about like, jumping in taking chances. This is how I pivot. That was your story. There's not a robot that can do exactly that. This is how you create a life like this in music, because it's so it's not a linear journey. It's kind of its twists and turns all over the place.

Speaker 2 46:54
Yeah. I mean, I also relate to that med journey stuff, right? I think someone said, and I think it's true, it's like, people aren't taking pictures, that med journey, which if you don't know what that is, that said AI picture generator for the people listening, but it's like, you know, and I use that stuff to make little cover images for singles or whatever is dope, you plug stuff in, it can make all kinds of rad stuff, I love it, I can photoshop it afterwards and blend it and put some title on it and feels like a vibe is cool. But no one's taking that and putting it in a gallery and selling it for 30 grand, it's a different thing. It's so serves a purpose, right. And for me as someone who sometimes needs graphics for singles, and I mean, I have some background and graphics and stuff so I can cook stuff up. But it's fun plugging in a prompt into mid June you have a cook up a picture and be like, That's a vibe, I can use that, you know, but I think there's an element of that with AI for songs, there'll be a thing where it's like, you might get some starting lines or something like that could just get the ball rolling. Cool. But, but like I say, with the mid journey, no one's hanging that out for 25 grand and I don't think that the AI song is gonna be like a Eleanor Rigby. I mean, or, you know, something that's just a substantial, incredible song might be capable of writing something that's more pop and something that is more formulaic, potentially. And I don't say that to diminish pop, but I think you know, Max Martin, I mean, I still think Max has written some incredible pop songs. I'm not diminishing that. But I think something that is born out of something that's a lot more analytical, and it still has a lot of heart. But I think the analytical part, I think that's probably where the AI can go and make inroads and be a creative tool. But I think it's a fascinating conversation around that application of that stuff. But I think real stories by real humans with real pain and real struggles coming out and a song as is never not going to be special. I guess time will tell. I guess time will tell. But yeah, yeah.

Mike Meiers 48:50
I mean, maybe 30 years, there's gonna be one in the Louvre, we'll go to France. There's the AI. Yeah, dude. If somebody's listening to this, and they're like, I love this. And I need to take the first step, what would you say is the first thing to do and kind of that next step of whatever they want to do, whether it's booking that CO right, whether it is traveling, or you know, like buckling down and opening up that, you know, their door for the first time, and like, I'm gonna start recording my own stuff.

Speaker 2 49:19
There's something unique in all of us that I think the world would be better for hearing the world would be a better place. There's something inside of you that you've yet to share that the world would be better if you shared. I mean, I believe that I think that each of us have something to contribute that only we can contribute. And I think for me, I really want to continue to finding out what that is and keep learning how to share and keep having keep developing the courage to share because I think I can humbly offer the best of what I can do and hope that the world has slightly improved by me doing that and my life and prove to you And I think that when we all commit to that, I think we do make the world better. You know, and I think that step can be really scary. It doesn't mean we're gonna go write some hit song. I mean, I've never done that. But I've had an amazing career of ups and downs and ins and outs and twists and turns, and it's amazing life, you know, and I look forward to the next 50 to be like, what comes next? You know, and I think just believing that, yeah, there's something that you can find in yourself that's worth sharing and just treating it not like, I'm under pressure to make some incredible thing. Just just go and be you and have the courage to find out what that is and how to express that and have the courage to take that first step, whatever that is. And if you're trying to be a songwriter, write a song, start just begin like, what have you possibly got to lose? Like far out?

Mike Meiers 50:47
Dude, this was awesome. Thanks for for hanging in. Geoff. This was such a good conversation. I feel like there's so many Instagram I have, like all these quotes, where I'm just like, dang, that was a good one. I was like, I was trying to like write down these little minute mark. That was a good one. That was a good one. That was a good. Thanks. This was awesome. Thanks for being here, man.

Speaker 2 51:07
Thank you for having me, bro. I'm really stoked with what you're doing. empowering people to do. This stuff is huge. Like it's huge.

Mike Meiers 51:19
And that does it for this week's episode. It was edited and produced by Chris Fafallios. I'm Mike Meiers. Thanks for listening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai