Ep. 81 : Mike Turner Syncs and Serendipity

May 31, 2023

Join us as we explore the world of music supervision with the incredible Mike Turner. As an award-winning music supervisor, editor, and producer, Mike brings a wealth of experience to the table.

Discover Mike's unconventional journey into the sync industry, from navigating the complexities of the role to stumbling upon unexpected opportunities. Gain insight into the song selection process and the significance of relationships and networking in the industry.

Get valuable advice from Mike on securing sync placements for aspiring songwriters and composers, and understand how it can impact their music careers. Follow Mike's captivating life journey, from a ski racer to a renowned music supervisor, as he faced challenges, discovered pivotal moments, and embarked on a path of self-discovery.

And don't miss the amazing story of how Mike cast an artist as both an actress and a musician in a movie by pure serendipity. It showcases the magic that can happen when musicians persist in their craft and build meaningful relationships.

Tune in for an episode packed with industry insights, personal anecdotes, and the unexpected wonders of the music world with Mike Turner.

 

Listen here or read the transcript below...

Mike Meiers 0:00
Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the Songwriting for Guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career that you love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Hey friends, Mike Meiers here with the Songwriting for Guitar podcast episode number 81. Mike Turner. Now Mike Turner, he is an award winning music supervisor, editor, music producer for TV film advertising. He's done things for brands like Converse booking.com, at Gmail, Microsoft. In television, he supervised shows and series is for CBS Paramount plus Netflix, MTV, Direct TV, Hulu Viceland. Any Yeah, I can keep on going on. And for me, when I started music licensing, I went to a whole bunch of conferences and every single conference I went to Mike was speaking he was a panelist. And to me, it was always funny, always giving great insight into this world that was just so new. And for me, it's still as it's ever changing. But it's really cool to hear the perspective of someone that's been in this position music supervision for a while and the insight that you can give. So if you are someone who's brand new to this concept, or you've thought about, I need a message music supervisor, I need to do this, I need to do it. Before you do any of that. Just listen to this episode. Because not only you're going to hear a really awesome story of how Mike got into music supervision, his background, which I think is important people preside over this, when it comes to supervisors, they always treat them as like, Oh, get me this thing. They're human beings too. They've got cool stories. And so I feel this is a great chance for you to hear that story. But also, he's gonna give some advice for artists that are looking to pitch their music, some of those things to not do or the things to do. So if you're someone in that position that's raised in that first email before you do just listen. So I'm gonna stop right now. And we're gonna dive into it. Episode number 81. With Mike Turner

other Mike Mike Turner, thanks for being here. Man. It can be only one. Mic. Other mic. This is the vs. It's like the Mortal Kombat. Like choose your mic. Dude, this is awesome. Because, you know, for me, like when I started getting into licensing, I feel every conference I went to you spoke at all Yeah, I feel like oh, and what I loved about your approach to was you were very open with your process. And, you know, giving advice you didn't hold back, but it was also to in a way that was just like, I was like, Oh, also casual. And I mean that in a good way. And it wasn't like you must do this, this this to achieve the net. But it was just like, very open the process and you're honest, like hey, you know, I love things that are great songs. And I, that made me kind of like, think hard to about like, Oh, that's right, you know, this is a service based industry. And they have to be good songs. And before we get into all of that, I want to know like, you know, for you, you know, I look to it stuff you post like you're always getting you know, you you release music, you do gear and I'm like was music just basically it for you growing up? Like the thing that you just loved?

Mike Turner 3:31
Yes. And no, I mean, I feel like actually kind of came to it a little bit late or it was backburner for me for a while, like I picked up the guitar? Well, I think my parents got me piano lessons when I was like, 10. And I didn't really take to it, you know, it's like the whole, like, when you're kind of made to practice something, you sort of resent it, you know, and so it just it didn't I, I liked music, but I just didn't have the discipline I think was maybe just like too early or something. Yeah. And then late, so I kind of gave that up. And then like around eighth grade, me and my freaking This is like the 1990 probably like 8919 90 was in Seattle, Washington, like the middle of midst of the grunge explosion in Seattle. So me and my little dipshit friends wanted to be in a band even though we didn't know like how to play anything we just knew being in a band was cool. So I borrowed a guitar from a friend and like just wanted to play it knowing nothing and I didn't want anyone to really show me because I didn't want like to have formal lessons. I just so it was almost like a secret. And I came up with my own crazy tuning just like based on nothing like zero musical knowledge and ended up being like a weird variation of an open tuning you know, so you could kind of just like get all over the neck with and everything you played sounded more or less like a chord. But there was some variation of that but anyway, I learned how to play guitar and this like invented tuning and so that was really fun like me and my friends like playing in this like awful band. But that like I learned a lot of I guess, like coordination and like rhythm in guitar. And then when I realized that I was playing in a nonsensical made up tuning, it was definitely a step back I was like, oh crap actually have to learn how to do this thing but I'd already developed some coordination skills. So it felt like I even though I didn't know like the fingering and actually anywhere around the neck like I was a little bit ahead of maybe someone starting from zero because I had like some hand strength and stuff like that implemented

Mike Meiers 5:24
it, you actually started to put into practice, which is sometimes where people get stuck because they're in the knot, like consuming and like, Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. I'm like, Cool. So what songs have you played,

Mike Turner 5:34
like, I just dove into it, like, you know, enthusiastically, you know, just wanting to, like, make sounds like not knowing what I was doing. So it never felt like practice. So it's just like jamming out, not just being oblivious to like how wrong it all was, you know, but it was like, super fun. And so I think then, when I was once I like ended up going to this sort of artsy High School, where everybody was like a dope musician. And it was very, like, you know, it was it was like a private, like, kind of artsy High School in Seattle, where, you know, the hallways that are like, lined with instruments, and everybody like, you know, between classes, like sitting on beanbag chairs, and, you know, jamming, and they were all like, really good and new music theory. And they're like, cool and smoked clove cigarettes and stuff. And so I started like hanging out with those guys. And actually, like, you know, relearning how to play the guitar, in a way that like, you know, was the normal way. Anyway, this is like a long winded way of saying, it was even then like, that was kind of the beginnings of it, I would say, from like, eighth grade and through high school, but I was my whole focus in life was ski racing. I was a, I was like, you know, a hardcore ski racer, really. And yeah, and like, from the time I could walk up until pretty much college or I ended up going even after this high school experience, going to boarding school, specifically for ski racing. And I just wanted to be on the US Ski Team, I wanted to be a World Cup ski racer, I worked my way up to like, you know, the very, like the, the US development team, which was basically like, you know, like a division of the US Ski Team that like, you know, if you're 17, and you're winning races, and you're doing like, you know, really well, like, you know, they are sort of looking at you and then you can kind of advance up through there if you're like, qualifying and then I injured myself really bad. And messed up my shoulder and ended up going to college, instead of like pursuing US Ski Team stuff. That did not

Mike Meiers 7:23
expect that answer where it was. Like, really, so that was kind of like music was a cool thing. But like, yeah, ski was like, that was like at the forefront.

Mike Turner 7:33
Yeah. So I was always like, you know, playing guitar and the vans in the van like the way to ski races and like entertaining my friends and making up silly songs and shit like that. And I liked music, but, but skiing was always the main thing. And then once I gave that up in college, because I got a partial, like very small athletic scholarship to a good school. And then I quit like halfway through my freshman year in college, because I was sort of burnt out as like, why am I doing this now anyway, and then all the hours in the day opened up like I wasn't, I'd have to get up at five in the morning to like, work out and lift weights and, you know, then be training in the end of the day and then studying. So suddenly, it was just like, oh, well, what do I fill this void with, and it was music. And then I was playing in bands and doing drugs and lost 20 pounds. And it was a blast.

Mike Meiers 8:19
It's funny when you were mentioning to like at the beginning of learning guitar that you were kind of figuring out a way I had, like previous episode way back Chris blue from prisons, the United States of America. He was like, he was like, Yeah, you know, I can't play a barre chord. And so he just talked about, like, you know, he was just like, I just kind of do this today, it was so much easier. And I figured, you know, and you tried to play a barre chord, he was like, See, I can't I can't do it. So he was like, I'm just gonna stick with this.

Mike Turner 8:46
And yeah, he famously is guitar only had like two or three strings on it. Yeah, it's just like, full

Mike Meiers 8:50
on. And that's it. And that's this in the same thing. But I find that interesting that you, you kind of jumped into it figured out, like, I'm just gonna start playing. And so you're building up some skill to rhythmically, and again, just putting the implementation side and then you have this period where you kind of learn a little bit more, because there are some people that are like, Hey, let me show you. And then just when you think you're going to do this, it's like the music's here to be like, Well, you might as well just fill your time with songs and you know, like playing and just having fun with music instead now.

Mike Turner 9:21
Yeah, absolutely. And also funny, funny that you mentioned Chris blue, because he helped me by I think my first guitar amp actually really okay. Yeah. Wow, super, super randomly, like, you know, because I was like, I guess well, I guess I was in eighth grade. I think I'd maybe had like a PV backstage 112 Before that, but I don't know if it was mine. I think I was borrowing it. And so I finally had some money together. And I went to go buy a cool guitar amp at this place in Seattle called the trading musician, which was like this sort of like in Seattle, this kind of legendary like, used vintage like guitar shop. I think that's some new stuff. It was mostly like you know, consignment and then you stuff And I went in there to like, look for one and Chris Blue was in there. And I of course, I knew who he was because he's from the presidency, United States of America. And like, you know, we're hanging out in the like amp area. And so I started chatting with him a little bit, because I was like, I'm a fan and he was like, What are you doing here? And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna buy a guitar amp. He's what are you gonna get? And I was like, I don't know. And then, so he's just asked me a bunch of questions about what I was playing and stuff. And then he was like, should get this thing you know? And he was like, literally, he didn't work there. But I was like, Okay, I'm gonna get that.

Mike Meiers 10:27
I love it. It

Mike Turner 10:29
was a Fender Princeton. Like a little Yeah, but it was like a solid, you know, solid tube amp. Yeah. That's that.

Mike Meiers 10:39
Yeah, cuz he's, I think he's still based out in Seattle or, or Portland somewhere. I forget where he said he was. But that makes sense that you just kind of hanging out there and be like, what's gotten? You get this? Yeah, I

Mike Turner 10:50
mean, I am sure he was buying cool stuff. But that that was like one of the cool like guitar, you know? Yeah. music stores like my ex guitars, drums. I mean, everything and it was, you know, independently on it wasn't like a Guitar Center, but the authors of this would have been like 1990. So before all the megastores took over everything. Yeah.

Mike Meiers 11:07
And that's kind of like at the cusp, still, where he's still kind of plugging away. Cuz I'm trying to think that's not until 1994 93. Somewhere around

Mike Turner 11:17
there. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I, yeah. Like I was aware. I mean, they were, you know, locally famous already. But if somehow I knew who they were, but yeah, they weren't like mega stars yet. But yeah, it's pretty funny now, I guess. Yeah. I mean, he's got I think he's still doing Casper baby pants. His children's he did.

Mike Meiers 11:33
He's kind of slowly wrapping that up. I mean, after like, 20 albums, which is crazy. Yeah. So okay, so then we, you're now playing in bands all the time. And you know, was that now the goal where you were just like, cool. Maybe this is going to be the vehicle that I'm going to do for the thing?

Mike Turner 11:51
Yeah, for a while that was like, oh, yeah, I want to just be a rock star, you want to be like front bands and write songs. And it was super fun. And I didn't, I guess I didn't really think too far down the line of like, how I'm going to make it in music, which is another thing that's so different, I think, partly about just, you know, where we are in 2023. And like the awareness of industries among young people, like really understanding what the music business is, and stuff like that. And also regionally, like, you know, everyone in LA has some, like, better concept of the entertainment business than like, probably anybody in Seattle at that time, you know? But no, I just was like, beyond like, knowing what a record label was, and that like, you know, bands get played on the radio, and people think they're awesome and cool. I had no like, direction of like, or strategy of like, how do I make it in the music industry, there were no conferences and like, you know, tutorials and masterclasses and there's barely the internet. So it's just like, I just like, Yeah, I just wanna play in a band playing bass with my friends. And maybe people will dig that.

Mike Meiers 12:53
Now, did the bands ever go pass yet? Like, were you doing like a little bit of like, local touring beyond like your state too, and just starting to like,

Mike Turner 13:02
not I mean, played in Seattle. And then like, I had a couple of different bands in college, and we'd play, you know, in eastern Washington. And then I moved around a lot after that, like multiple different cities. And I still, I stuck in Chicago for like, six years, and I played there a little bit. But that was kind of mostly solo, and like, I'm recording and also so after college, basically, after college, I got my degree in English literature. And I went back to school for audio engineering, actually, because I was interning in recording studios and stuff like that, at that time, and really being like, yeah, I want to work in music and record my own music. And we just got enamored with recording studios. And just like, just how cool all that was, and realizing that maybe I wasn't gonna be able to really learn it all just from looking over somebody's shoulder, you know, it's just like too much to know. And so I did go to get like a technical degree from the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences in Arizona. And I thought maybe, you know, I was still wanting to be a rock star, but I thought maybe I could be a record producer, or, you know, an engineer, and it was really valuable. Like, I learned a lot of stuff that I've definitely used to this day, but probably one of the most valuable things was, I learned, I just I don't think I wanted to be a record producer professionally. It's like, yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm not maybe, like it. I loved. I loved it. But when I looked at the landscape, I'm like, There's maybe 50 guys in this whole industry that like make a killer talented enough and in the right circles, and everybody else is like, you know, sleeping on couches and living off pizza crust. So I was like, I don't know if I want to do that chase that professionally. I'm maybe not quite that talented at this, you know, but it was great for my own stuff. You know,

Mike Meiers 14:41
it just seems to what's interesting is you, you, you know, some people freak out where they're just like, I'm not sure what I you know, I don't know if I can do this or I don't know if I should be doing this. It seems like you were just like, I'm just gonna try this and I'm gonna see if I like it. It seemed like a lot of like testing the waters.

Mike Turner 14:56
Sure I were just being like, open. I mean, I think there was a point at which I'm like, Yeah, I'm definitely going to be a record producer. This is like for me, and then got way into it and realized, like, just maybe how difficult that was gonna be. And, and also, you know, I mean, I think like all of us, you tend to gravitate towards the things that you're naturally good at. And sometimes when something comes a little harder, you're like, I don't know, like, maybe there's an easier path. So for better or for worse, there, I made some calculation at that point where I was like, Yeah, I still want to work in the music industry, I still want to write songs, feel like, this is so technical and so hard that maybe I'm not like, so naturally gifted at it that I'm gonna like be a winner. So maybe there's more success to go around in like, other areas of the music business. And that's when I start kind of looking at like, maybe I want to work for a record label. Maybe I want to be an a&r guy, maybe I want to be something where I can sort of bullshit my way through this instead of having an actual skill. You know,

Mike Meiers 15:56
then after at that time, was that, since you're kind of in Arizona, is that kind of like, well, LA's right, not that far, I might as well just kind of make the trek out and just like, see,

Mike Turner 16:06
no, cuz, so from Arizona, I moved to New York, I got an internship at like a management company in New York, that just briefly turned into a job until they went out of business. And then I moved to, like, I had a friend who had was like, like a big head honcho executive at MTV, in Miami, where all their sort of global businesses done. And he was like, come stay with me in Miami. And then so I was like, basically overnight, just like abandoned by I was like, not even on a lease in New York, I was paying somebody rent. And so I just went to Miami. And I was living with him and his fiancee for like a year or two. And I was like doing odd jobs for MTV, because everybody spoke like three languages there because it's their global business. And I just didn't really have the language skills. So I was like, taking BTS photos and you know, doing like, Pa work for the, like MTV Music Awards and stuff like that. And then, like pursued a job in Chicago, I was like, I gotta get out of Miami. At a certain point, it's like nothing's really working here. So then I moved to Chicago to pursue some work. That also kind of didn't materialize. But then I love Chicago, and I just got stuck there for like, six years, like doing live sound and nightclubs, and, you know, performing and bands and DJing. And just like, you know, having fun in Chicago, and then I moved to Los Angeles, okay, I got to, but I did get a job for bug music. They were in Chicago. At the time, they were like the largest independent music publisher, I guess, in the world. And then cobalt came along BMG, or later BMG acquired them, but at the time, they needed somebody in Chicago to kind of rep be like the guy in town for the ad agencies, because all the a lot of the agencies are in Chicago. So I became like, the Bug Guy in Chicago for a couple of years. And that opened my eyes up to music publishing, and like this whole side of the world, and I was like, Aha, there's like, jobs here.

Mike Meiers 17:53
Okay, so then you realize, like, oh, wait a minute. Like, there's there's lots of opportunity. And it seems like this is something I could do you feel like all like everything that you did, kind of like, when you get to that point, you're like, Oh, um, it's kind of like the accumulation of all these different skills and all these different things that you have around. This is where it like comes into play now.

Mike Turner 18:12
Yeah, I do think that I mean, I like I had a very aimless, you know, like path, I mean, not entirely aimless, like, I wanted to work in music, and I just didn't know where, you know, it's such a big industry potentially. And I, it's kind of goes back to like, I think when you're, when you come from a place, it's not like a music, or an entertainment industry center, like New York, or LA, or even Nashville, you just don't know, like, how big and how many niches and how many things there are to do. Like, you know, Seattle was like, a big pool scene on the map at the time, but like, but just because a lot of bands came from there didn't know didn't mean anybody there knew what they were doing, you know, like, there's no music industry in Seattle, and there never has been, and there still isn't, it's just like, a lot of talented musicians come out of that town. So I just didn't know, like any of this stuff, because like nobody ever tells you like, the only thing you know, learned from movies and TV is like record labels, sign bands, and the radio plays them, you know. And at that time, like the streaming was just beginning to like decimate the recorded music industry, everybody was getting laid off, you know, it was like, iTunes, like, so it wasn't streaming as iTunes. iTunes is ruining the music business. It was also the beginning of this, like technological revolution that was changing music and all these ways, but you'd have all these startups that you know, would fail and, and so I kept like working for all these, like random things that just never seemed like they would go anywhere. And, and so once I kind of got into music, publishing and realized, Oh, this is this massive industry that's existed for longer than I even knew about, that's sort of the backbone of the whole industry. And, you know, it leverages copyrights into you know, all these other mediums, Film Television advertising, like that's, you know, there's money to be made there because it doesn't come from the music industry. It comes from industries that have money Yeah.

Mike Meiers 20:00
What I think is really cool about this, and this is where, you know, an artists that maybe is, you know, trying to approach you or, you know, another music supervisor, they don't often think about, oh, music supervisors and people that are in positions like you are, are also fans of music and are also passionate about, like, the whole thing.

Mike Turner 20:19
Yeah, I just, I mean, yeah, I grew up, like, with really, like snobby strident opinions about music and, like, desperately trying to be cool in Seattle in the 90s. And like, you know, the era of the most like, like, Uber hipstery, like, peacocking, like, you know, who's your who, what's your favorite, most obscure band that you can possibly like? It, everything is just like ripe for parody. It's like, you know, and so, I mean, yeah, like, I just, but I loved it, but it was all you know, everybody, I feel like everybody in those scenes are so self conscious. Yeah, you know, and it makes you like, just dive so deep to like, you know, discover the newest, the coolest thing. And I sort of loved that about it. And, but then also, it really fed into my passion for like, creating music as well. And I just, even though I, my I feel like my kind of expiration date for rock stardom was fast approaching as I was in getting into my 20, like late 20s. and being like, I don't think there's really a play here. Like, I just didn't want to give it up. Like, I still like I want to be around this in some way. And when I when I finally learned about, like, the the role of what music supervision was, and how that combines, like, you know, the things I liked about film and television all I was like, Oh, this is so this is where I have to be. And it just seemed like something I could sink my teeth into. Like, unlike everything else, where it was like, I would try it out and be like, there's nothing here and nothing here. There's nothing here. And then this was like, oh, there's so much here for me to like, get good at. And then also, it seemed like an area where it wasn't oversaturated yet, like there was sort of still the Wild West, I could kind of make my my own future. It wasn't just a whole bunch of gatekeepers for me being like, No, you can't do this.

Mike Meiers 22:07
Oh, I like that, that there's not like gatekeeper because I feel like a lot of people get that I wish I could do that, oh, there's a lot of gatekeepers and but to be there at the beginning, or not the beginning, but at an industry where there's few. And it's like cool. This is a place for me. Yeah,

Mike Turner 22:21
it was still very evolving. I mean, there's way more gatekeepers in this now and there ever have been and it's wild, just how much it's changed in like 15 years or so since I've been doing music supervision. But it's not like I was one of the first music supervisors at all, but I was got into it at a point where it was started to become like something known outside of like, niche bubbles in entertainment where, you know, TV shows that had cool soundtracks and fans were like, knew what a music supervisor was. So it was still early enough that like, I could, I started doing it literally just by saying I was one and then somebody hired me, and then that wasn't a lie anymore.

Mike Meiers 22:56
Now, I'm curious. So was that just also to your like, I'm just gonna own the title. And, you know, eventually, you know, shits gonna happen, like, somebody's gonna be like, yeah, you

Mike Turner 23:05
kind of, I mean, there was a bit of a dovetail of like, I did end up getting a job for a Seattle based music library that wanted representation in LA. So I was like, pitching like library music, which wasn't quite as oversaturated then as it is now. And knowing that I wanted to move move into music supervision. And then it turned out that a production Seattle based production company, whose owners, I knew were doing a big campaign for Microsoft, and they, like kept reaching out to me for advice on like, how to kind of handle this music supervision side of it, which had been sort of delegated to them somehow through just like, I don't know, like, it just wasn't getting taken care of by the brand or any other agency that so the production company's like, how do we do this? And they're like, can you can we pay you to do it? I was like, Yeah, music supervisor, Microsoft ads. And what ended up happening is these ads were supposed to be online, and they had a bit different broadcast agency, higher handling all like the big like, like, you know, flagship pieces, but the brand liked the online stuff better than their broadcast pieces. So they flipped them and put them on television. So I ended up you know, music supervising, like seven giant broadcast ads for Microsoft. And so even though I was working pitching, I ended up kind of stepping into that. And then so from there, that's basically so technically I done that, but then I started calling myself a music supervisor. And then I got hired on a film, but I'd never music supervisor to film so and I had already kind of learned a lot about music publishing, so it wasn't like, I was totally full of crap, but I was definitely like, you know, fronting to some degree.

Mike Meiers 24:37
Now, what's interesting about that, what would you say are maybe like, big misconceptions about you know, in terms of the way people think music goes into a film and and you know, oh, it's on the picture. Now. I feel like there's so much in between that you have to clear and you have to figure out that's a lot of responsibility on you.

Mike Turner 24:58
Yeah, well, yeah. It's I think the thing this has helped me to, like explain the role a little bit, because it is so broad, potentially, like, it can be very, very narrow or just like really confusingly broad, the role on a production of any kind. You know, it's like anything that touches music can potentially fall in your lap to deal with, if nobody else understands how to do it. They're like, Oh, you're the music supervisor, can you figure this out? So what I say is that it's really the job is, is a project management job. You know, you're, you're basically producing the music, that department, you're, you're the head of the music department on a project, and about 70%, depending on the job 60 to 70% of that is project management, logistics, paperwork, negotiation, like, budget management, ego management, like therapist, you know, and then there's like, 30% of that maybe more, depending on the project that's like, what people would consider creative, like listening to music watching picture, like, what's the right song that goes into your Who should I reach out to that would be the best composer who's you know, but all of it is budget driven, and logistics driven? How much time do we have? When do we need to get this done? What's the easiest, quickest path to get this done in the way that you know? So it's, you're looking at the whole scope of that, and constantly spinning all these little plates to arrive at the creative decisions that that like, I would say work best, but sometimes it's not best, sometimes it's like, work easiest and fastest and well enough, you know,

Mike Meiers 26:30
now I like that easiest and fast enough, what makes some things and I guess the, you know, scenarios can change. And it can always be different. But what makes something like, easy and fast, that is like, you know, not a nightmare.

Mike Turner 26:43
Sometimes it just comes down to I mean, actually, I'd say a lot, most of the time it comes down to relationships, you know, there's a lot of letting there's more music being made than ever before. There's more pre existing songs in the world than ever before. And there's more composers out there, you know, I get, you know, you're bombarded by solicitation emails every day from, you know, the usual places, new places, you know, composers, all that stuff. So, and I'm sure a lot of them are very competent, like, any of them might do a really great job on stuff, but I don't know, these people and, and anything in an entertainment. I think, and especially in film and television, and probably advertising is these decisions are largely like fear based. Everything, right? It's like, there's money on the line. And every nobody wants to, like lose their job, including me. So, like, I make decisions, like, partly, you know, based on who I've worked with before, that's done a good job for me. And so I trust that, and I can vouch for it. And you know, so that would be an example of like, easier and faster, because like, you know, if I were to say, alright, I'm working on a low budget movie, and I've got $30,000 to spend on a composer, and I know that the director is into this kind of vibe. Here's the guy that I know, that's done that for me before really well. And then five other people that are like, Yeah, this is the kind of thing we do, too. And we would also like that job. Well, it's tough for me to be like, I'm just gonna take a chance on any one of you guys. But I've worked with this guy before. So I'm gonna, that's that's like, easier and faster for me, you know, which

Mike Meiers 28:22
makes sense. Because you're also connected to that project. And that person if, like, you know, they do it, and let's say they give you something completely opposite, or they're like, oh, it's gonna take a little bit longer. Or it's just like, actually, when we said we did it, we kind of do the thing. It's just like you that's tied to you, too. So that like that. I can get maybe it's, you know, it's funny when you talked about bands. I think some people think music is that like, yeah, kid, I'm gonna take a chance on you, you seem like you've got, you know, yeah, and it's not like that. It's like, I know this person, the I see what they've done before the deliver, they're, you know, they're easy to work with, they're not a pain, that, you know, they're 90, you know, I may have 99 problems, but they're not going to be one of them. There. Yeah. And,

Mike Turner 29:06
and of course, like, I like working with new people, and I like meeting new resources, but the way they're gonna get integrated into your world tends to it's less often just like throw, like rolling the dice and be like, I want to work with somebody new. Let's pick you You seem cool. It's usually more like like, you know, maybe on another movie, the director knew this composer he was already attached and then I didn't have anything to do with their hiring but I worked on this movie saw that they did a great job. And then something else comes up where we need like a similar kind of creative and I go you know, who would be great for that is the guy that was on this last movie. I didn't hire that person on that one. But I'm going on this one. So now that's like someone that like I hadn't worked with before, but I saw how their workflow I saw them deliver on that and like so now I'm willing to vouch for them. Like I didn't have to it wasn't me on the line last time. I can be like you did a great job on that. So now I'm gonna be have you on this. And I can say, you know, in all honesty, like, I know, this person does a good job because I've worked with them before.

Mike Meiers 30:06
Now, that's a cool example of, even though you may not know that person, you're watching what they're doing. You're, you're connected in some way. And sometimes people don't realize that the things that they're doing in the process, it's like people are watching. And so it's just like, don't be an asshole, to you know, deliver well, and it's just, like, just show up and just do the work well, yeah, and

Mike Turner 30:28
so much of it is personality, like, at a certain level, you kind of assume like a baseline level of competency, like, you know, we're all you're all good musicians, you know, but, but so much of the job does come down to like, you're gonna spend four months maybe on something and like, this person is really cool. Like the, I think the directors really gonna like you, like, you know, and so like them feeling comfortable, and being able to commute, especially with a composer. And I know this is like, it's funny, because this is like, my onboarding of composers is maybe 20% of what I really do. But it I think it descriptively is easier to talk about, you know, when it comes to like, the logistics of like, you know, the sort of project management side of music, your music supervision, where it's like, I'm matching your music to this production, but also your personality to this director and, and her or his ability to work with you to communicate, you know, even if you don't get it the first time, your personalities. Like, I think we'll do a good job together, you know, because if you have, you can have a really talented composer who's like, rigid and hard, tough to work with. And it won't work as the director gets frustrated, doesn't know how to communicate and they don't get the right result.

Mike Meiers 31:40
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It goes back to relationship personality, relationship personality, its its people often as well, is that a big while the music's importance like no music is totally important. But you do have to be have to gel well with people and you have to realize like if somebody asks for a change, it's because it's a service based thing. And you go Sure, no problem and not like, no,

Mike Turner 33:32
yeah, yeah, yeah, is there's a million hurdles, and there's so much stuff that's frustrating, and a pain in the ass. And like that comes up on every single job and things were like, I want to be like, This isn't my problem. This is your problem, you know, but like, to a certain extent, just sucking it up and doing it. I mean, like I get the only way I get hired, is getting hired again, or being referred by people that I ended up connecting with on some point on every production. And like, I mean, whether I'm the best music supervisor out there is highly debatable. My creative choices, you know, are maybe only a fraction of what ends up getting me hired again on something, it's like, that person didn't screw it up. And we like him.

Mike Meiers 34:15
That's the thing too. It's like, it's all connect, I guess there's ways of looking at it. Like, I just compose, yeah, but you were part of like this whole unit where everyone's connected. The director and music supervisor, we have editor, everyone has to gel together to make that project work. And if there's a kink in the system,

Mike Turner 34:35
yeah, and there often are I mean, there's just you know, it's also productions are kind of, you know, that it's a little bit like summer camp or high school, you know, to some degree like, you know, there's a lot of people working on something and you know, not everybody always gets along and there's always like some gossip like this fucking person can they you know, and you never know who it's going to be but you hope it's not somebody on your team or somebody that you brought in, you know, but like If that happens, like, there's like some music editor who's like a grumpy pain in the ass, and it's like, we're not gonna hire that guy again, like, God, would you just like, shut up and do the thing? You know? And so, yeah, it's just, that's such an important part is like, they have to be good. Yes, but there's a lot of technically proficient people in Hollywood. I need somebody that's like, good and cool. And like, you know, not not like saying a pushover who's just gonna, like, eat crap and do whatever you tell them, but like, know, how to be confident in their ability to, like, manage all of that in a diplomatic way.

Mike Meiers 35:34
To me, that's also saying like, they know how to manage their ego, like their egos. Yeah, check. And it's like, yeah, they got opinions. And they're gonna be like, if they feel like something's like, no, I really think this is good. But at the same time, they're not going to be like, fuck you. I added on anyway.

Mike Turner 35:49
Yeah, yeah. Or just right. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, there's always a point at which, you know, you're in service of the director, show runners vision, and there's definitely things that creatively I don't always agree with, and I'm only going to, like, push so hard against that until it's like, yeah, it's not the mike Turner, favorite song show. So?

Mike Meiers 36:07
No, I guess that's a question like, how do you you know, there's the personal choices, which are like, the things that you love? Are there things that you're like, Yeah, I'm working on this. I'm not really crazy about this, but I'm working on it, you can still objectively make those choices.

Mike Turner 36:23
Oh, yeah. I mean, I, I take me there, I take on jobs that I'm not super inspired by all the time, because at some point, it's just it's a gig if they have like, the budget. And, you know, I mean, there's not much that I turned down if I have the time, and the money is okay. And then, you know, what do they say there's some summer for the meals, and some are for the reals. So, you know, like, every few, like, you get something cool, that you're really proud of? Yeah, like, wow. And even the ones that I'm not like, crazy about, I usually find something to be, like, proud of as far as my work on on the music, you know, whether it's just the needle drops, or you know, the score or something. But, yeah, I mean, like, I feel like I do my best for every production. But, you know, some things are better on the page than they were executed you like, I like the script better than the movie turned out. But you never know, maybe it could have won an Oscar.

Mike Meiers 37:20
If somebody's listening to this, and they're like, Man, I really want to do I want to contribute music, to you know, film and TV, what is the first step to move in the right direction? I know, that's a pretty where I'm like, Jenny and I just a couple sentences, but like, you know, because sometimes people are discouraged, because they're like, Wow, they're, you know, there's so many people out there, what's gonna separate me, what's going to make me stand out in this sea of never ending things to choose from?

Mike Turner 37:48
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's there's, there's sort of two sides to that there's like songs like getting your, your songs into movies and TV. And then or if you're trying to be a composer, that's sort of a different route. In both cases, to some degree, it's relationships. But if it's songs, and you're like, you know, you're recording artists, or touring artists, that you're in a band and you and you want to eat your songs and stuff, I still think that the best thing to do is focus on pretty much every other aspect of your career as an artist, like touring, making fans, all that stuff is what gets you noticed, that's what like, people then come gravitate to your music and say, oh, I want to use that in a TV show. But then, to making sure that that's available by having somebody else representing it, you know, like, what even if it's in the early stages, even if it's just a library deal, with a low barrier for entry, but making sure that it's just out there in the mix that like they're sending, you know, pitches out to music supervisors, like it's just, it's a numbers game at that point. And then, you know, the more your star rises as an artist, if that's your focus, the more people are going to come find you for that. And of course, you know, it doesn't hurt to meet, to know whether it's music supervisors, directors, producers, I mean, that those I get music comes to me also through the production, I mean, there's always somebody with a cousin or a friend or whatever, and they want to send me a folder of music that you know, and I listen to that stuff, because I have to because it's the director's cousin, or whatever, you know, sometimes it makes it into the movie. So that doesn't hurt is relationship driven. And then composing is the same way like with that, I would say that then it's really important to like, you start small and like, you know, the scoring like student films and making friends with directors who need a score that you can do for peanuts or or, or cheap and hopefully the people that you're doing that stuff for they their profiles rise, and they keep hiring you back, you know, I mean, and introducing you to their director, friends and stuff.

Mike Meiers 39:44
I think that is that's fantastic advice on both ends because to me, if you are an artist, if you're saying keep on focusing on what you're doing well, and just keep on working at that don't go like well, I guess I you know, I wrote five songs put out an EP, we're just gonna wait for it to get Place. Let's just wait. Yeah,

Mike Turner 40:01
right, exactly. I think there's a, there's there was such a boom in the sort of sink business. And there's so many companies that really like, sought to kind of capitalize on that. And he's sort of like get rich, quick style thing that like convinced a lot of artists that like a great sink placement is like the key to your music career. And I know that it's happened here and there. But those days are dwindling. If ever, I like the the odds that one, killer placement is going to blow you up as an artist anymore, are very small, just compared to the amount of potential opportunities there are for your music. And so I would say if anything, it's the opposite. It's not, like, syncs aren't the key to your music career, your music career is the key to syncs, you know, super deep, right?

Mike Meiers 40:47
Well, it does make sense because, you know, you, you get inundated probably with tons of music, where you can sniff out where it's like, that's not a real song.

Mike Turner 40:57
There's that but also just like, you know, even if it is like, you know, if I, like, let's say, I'm on a indie movie, and I've got $5,000 to spend on a cool cue, as source in a bar, like, that's cool. And I'm so stoked to be able to, like give five grand or whatever to indie band, and they're happy to have it, but like, I don't think I've ever seen once them go on to be superstars just because there's 30 seconds of their song and playing in a bar and a scene in a Netflix movie, like, I mean, it's cool, but it's the odds of that like making you it just doesn't really happen anymore. Maybe if it was an Apple commercial. There's a few types of like high profile sinks that definitely get you noticed more. But even then, like, I just don't see that happening the way it did, like, oh, there's a brand that used a song. And now this band is huge. It's like, you know, it bumps your your streaming numbers up for a while. There's another bad about it. But again, it's like these are take the money, it's cool exposure. It's all like a stepping stone, but like, this isn't going to probably break you. You should also be doing everything else. This is mailbox money. It's look good look, yeah, keep doing what you're doing, though.

Mike Meiers 42:05
Keep on going and keep on writing more songs, keep on releasing, keep the engine going and don't rely on necessarily one thing that's going to carry you there. It's like also your work ethic and whether you want to keep on doing this is going to be key of whether this just keeps on going.

Mike Turner 42:22
Yeah, and the money. The thing is like the amount of money that you're able to make, to some extent is kind of tied to like who you are degree, right, like expensive songs are famous songs. Yeah. Fit songs nobody's ever heard of don't cost as much to license because there's a lot more options. I mean, brands can pay a lot more to us even indie music in you know, advertising. And same with like, trailers are certain kind of like high profile spots that that you can command a decent fee from but still, like, you know, maybe you might get 2030 grand like for like, like really major spot like that. Or like if it's a national maybe it's like Nike or something, maybe it's almost $100,000. But that's like winning the lottery, your average sync for an indie band is going to be probably somewhere between like 1005 $1,000, you know, as background and TV show, it's not life changing money. So I just you can't really depend on it.

Mike Meiers 43:15
You can't write on that one. It was I was trying to describe with someone where I was like, Yeah, and I was like, Yeah, I got, I do, like, you know, tons of reality TV shows, I was like, but I'm not relying on that one show. It's like literally, like, oh, it's like 60 bucks. A cue is like, it's not necessarily life changing. But I have to keep on creating just like a shit ton, consistently. And yeah, and

Mike Turner 43:38
it's feeding it. And it's just because of just kind of basic supply and demand economics. If there's like a bazillion indie artists that all want their songs in TV shows. And there's you know, like a never ending supply of libraries that are shoveling that to you it like the value is dramatically drops. And that's what happened when it when the stigma of selling out completely wore away and nobody cared anymore. And suddenly music was just like everywhere, right? But what's the one thing that doesn't really change is the equity in famous copyrights. Like because it's a famous copyright, it's the only one and so like, if we need that song, there's no other way to get it except for pay that one entity that has the rights to it, whatever amount of money they want, or just we can't afford it, we'll have to move on. But if all things being equal, it's like hey, we need a rock song. And there's like a million rock songs being like thrown in your face then you're like here, take $500 you will find somebody else you know.

Mike Meiers 44:34
So most people are like

Mike Turner 44:37
yeah, it sounds like so like, like, like greedy capitalists, but it kind of is just like, you know, I don't know like, it reminds me that that dress have developed in line with like Lucille Bluth, like how much could have banana cost Michael $10 You know I've never been to the grocery store.

Mike Meiers 45:00
But no, that makes sense too. Because you're right in the, you know, past five years, like, you know, the amount of like, you know, ads that I'll get, well just be like, Hey, do you want to get license? Do you want to get and so everybody's like, hey, I want to do like, This is it? I had someone I had. That was like a one off. And the first question was asked was like, Is this a great way to make fast money? I was like, It's a terrible way. I was like, the worst way right now. Yeah, don't I was like, unless you are? Absolutely. It seems like the big thing that I'm seeing continually, though, that people that keep on doing it is their number one super patient. They're constantly creating a body of work. They're not stopping, but they're also to constantly connecting with people, because they realize in the value of what you're saying is like, they know someone, eventually they make connection, that connection. They may not tap them on the shoulder right away, and maybe like a year, two years later, where they go, Oh, shit, like, you know, I think they'd be actually really awesome for this. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing.

Mike Turner 46:05
Yeah. You know, and there are always you know, like, just stars align sometimes like crazy things happen. You know, timing right time, right place, like, right song. I mean, gosh, the movie. I'm working on a movie right now. Starring Jenna Ortega for Paramount and it's, it's cute. It's like a coming of age teen romance. It's Jenna Ortega and her co star from Wednesday. This guy Percy Hynes, why don't you see Wednesday? Yeah, he's like the blonde Xavier, I think in that and everybody really shipped that relationship. Like it never happened in the show. But like all her fans are like, oh, so they get to play like opposite each other's romantic leads in this movie. So it's like very exciting. And there's a band in the in the movie, and there's a band in the script. And through, you know, the director is a friend of mine. And we've been talking about this script for a couple of years. And she's been trying to kind of get it made, so she got greenlit, and like it at some point, the band was like, sort of a mid male, like, kind of almost famous sort of cliche rock band. And I suggested like, what if we make it a woman you know, like, maybe she's more of a Phoebe? Bridgers type. Yeah, she loved that. I just was like, I'd haven't seen that as much like, she's not so much comic relief, but has like, you know, some like wisdom, but she's like, cool. It's like a real artist. I think we should cast her real artists to play themselves. And of course, in 2020 when you're talking about this, Phoebe Bridgers was playing like, venues the size of the troubadour, you know, so that seemed maybe more doable now. She's like a superstar but but she liked that idea. So she like wrote that in she changed the character of the artists and so when we, this got greenlit and, and she was, she was like who we're gonna get a fine. I suggested only one artist for this. And she's not anybody that like had any particular fame. It was literally just an artist that maybe three years before, I'd gone in to see another band and she they were opening at the bootleg. And I was like, Oh man, she's really fantastic. Like she's got something. Love the songs. I followed her on Instagram. I saw her a couple other times in places in LA. And like, we connected at one point like for drank and talked about her music, but like I didn't really know her at all. And then, like, three days before this movie, like went into work before I got hired on it. And then we went into production a few weeks later, and the director was like, Who are we going to get to cast it to be this role? This artist, this artist had like texted me a brand new song like a link to a song. She was like, Hey, Mike, I know your music supervisor. We haven't chatted in a while I just wanted to like, you know, I'd wrote this new song, it really just feels like something like a coming of age, teen romance or something. And I was like, Man, this is so good. I love this song. I really Yeah. And, and when when I talked to the director, and we, this came up, I was like, listen to this. What do you think about this? It just kind of reminds me of the end of your movie fully expecting her to be like, Yeah, that's cool. Let's keep looking. I don't know what else you got. She listened to it on the phone with me. And was like, just like, I love this, who is this artist and I was like, she's just you know, like a cool songwriter here in LA. I just think she's like talented. And I like her songs. And I sent her her Instagram. She's like, She's adorable. She's like, let's set up a meeting. And literally two weeks later, she was cast in the movie. And a couple weeks after that, we were in Salt Lake City shooting it for nine days. So she has like most like scenes like big scenes lines in the movie. So she's playing herself in the film. Yeah. And it's the only I sent her I sent the director one song is the only person that I even like, just off the top of my head because she'd sent me that song Three days before. And I was like, oh, man, this is so good. I don't know. Let's see what the director thinks. Now is it what I

Mike Meiers 49:41
love? I mean, there's shutdown I love about that. But what I love is yeah, that was a connection. But she wasn't waiting on you to then search and then think and remember but she liked follow up and she followed up a little bit later. Like hey, we haven't you know we left touch but I want to send you this you know You know, maybe that's because it's kind of what you're talking about, like still doing it still not waiting, waiting for someone to swoop in and be like, let me take you there, because you just popped in your mind my mind, but you were just like, Yeah, you know.

Mike Turner 50:14
Yeah. And she she wasn't she's not like a part of any of the, you know, sort of caught She's not someone that's at those conferences all the time like she's not involved in like songwriting camps she's got her band plays her songs does little tours, like really just kind of in the studio focused on that stuff doesn't really never really was a part of that bubble in Hollywood, which is kind of there's like that songwriter kind of hustled bubble. And so she wasn't one of those, those folks, I just always really liked her music. And even when we met, like, for a drink the year before, she didn't even have any syncretic representation at all, and hadn't really considered it. And so I had suggested a company that I thought, you know, would like her music, and she did end up contacting them. So they started representing her but yeah, she just reached out like a year later, just kind of like, Oh, I thought of you. I just, you'd like to hear this song. And I was like, I love this.

Mike Meiers 51:08
Dude, that is, I mean, that's such a cool, I don't know, just your journey in general. Just like, again, I like that. It's not just like the straight path like, well, I woke up one day, and I was like, You know what? I'm gonna be, but like, here we go. It was just like, all over the fucking place. You know, you're in Arizona, you're in New York, you're in Miami, you're in Chicago. And then finally, you're you're in LA. But dude, this was so good. Because I think for a lot of people just hearing, you know, if you're gonna do this, you have to love it. Like, you have to love your music, you have to be passionate about it. But you have to stay with it. No one's coming in, to just be like, Oh, there's one placement I'm gonna swoop in. And I'm gonna take you to the top. It's like, No, you may get a little boost. You can you got to keep on going.

Mike Turner 51:54
Yeah, that said, I would say this example is one of those things and we'll see remains to be seen. This is the type of thing that like I could see having like an indelible impact on her career. And I certainly hope it does, because it's a little bit different than just like having your song in the movie. There's like, she actually performs three times on camera in this film, and I think we're using four of her songs and like, and, you know, she's like a character in the movie she got, we've got like, her name on the marquee out in front of the big theater. You know, like, she plays venues, you know, maybe the size of like, Nebulon do like under a couple 100 people, but in this film, we've made her into like, like a Phoebe Bridgers that can fill theatres and she's like, this cool touring artists in this movie. So, and her songs are great. Like it she should be super famous, but we've just crafted her that way in this movie, and it just, you know, I feel like people are gonna be like, I gotta know who this artists.

Mike Meiers 52:42
Yeah, immediately, like Shazam. And just like, I gotta fall on Spotify. She got me to do now is we have to go see. So I think that's even. But again, that was someone that was just like, followed up with you. Just like, Hey, I just wanted to, you know, wasn't waiting for you to swoop in. I think that's fucking awesome.

Mike Turner 52:59
Yeah, yeah, it was super fun. Actually, I got to be in the movie, too. I play her bass player on camera. It was really fun.

Mike Meiers 53:06
That is amazing. Dude, Mike, this was this was awesome. We'll have to. I feel like this is just like part one, because there's probably a shit ton we keep on diving into. But this was really cool.

Mike Turner 53:17
Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's great. And thanks for having me on.

Mike Meiers 53:25
And that does it for this week's episode. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, and any of our previous episodes, and you haven't given us a review on Apple podcast yet, can you just take a moment right now scroll down. Give us a five star review and talk about your favorite episode and share an episode with a songwriting friend that you think would benefit from the things that we've shared. And if you have thank you so much, you're the reason why we keep on putting out amazing episodes like this one, and the one you'll hear next week. And like all of them, they were edited, produced by Chris Mathias on Mike Myers. Thanks for listening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai