Episode 101: John Lunn

Mike sits down with the extraordinary composer, John Lunn, known for his outstanding work on shows like Shetland, The Last Kingdom, and Downton Abbey. Miek, dives deep into John's extensive background in both classical and pop music, exploring the intricate process of composing for television and film.

Discover how John Lunn crafts music that seamlessly aligns with visuals, elevating the emotional impact of scenes. This episode unravels the mysteries of writing to picture, showcasing John's remarkable talent and insights. The conversation delves into his creative process, how he determines what works for a particular scene, and the art of scoring for diverse genres.

Listeners are treated to an exclusive peek into John Lunn's world, as he generously shares his time and expertise. Previously featured on the Insider's Track Sync Membership, John Lunn returns to provide an even deeper understanding of his creative journey.

For anyone aspiring to comprehend the intricacies of composing for TV and film, Episode 101 is a must-listen.

Listen to to the podcast here or read the transcript below....

 

 

Mike Meiers 0:00
Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the Songwriting for Guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career that you love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Hey, What's up friends, Mike Byers here with the songwriting for guitar Podcast, episode 101. With John lOn. It's very clear sometimes. I geek out about episodes when I have a guest on and I'm so excited to dive into it because I'm a fan of their work. And that's pretty much every episode. That was the great thing about having a podcast. But this one especially John lung is a phenomenal composer things that he's done like Shetland, the last kingdom little show from Netflix or the show called Downton Abbey. John is a phenomenal composer with an extensive background, not just in classical but pop. And we dive into his entire process. How does he write to picture? How does he know what works for a scene? What is his process, and I'm so glad to have him on. He was so gracious enough with his time to speak to our Insider's track sync membership. A while back that I was thrilled to have him back dive deeper into the process. And so that's what this episode is all about. If you are someone that's trying to understand this world of composing, and understand this world of TV and film, this is an episode you don't want to miss. And we get into it. So I'm not going to hammer on any more, we're going to dive into it, Episode 101. John.

John, I really appreciate you taking the time for this

Speaker 1 2:04
was my pleasure, Mike, nice to be with you all again,

Mike Meiers 2:07
I was really excited because you you spoke to my class A while back. And I just wanted to go into a deep dive conversation with you because I felt like there was so much more I wanted to cover and also just geek out over with you. And what better way on a podcast format. And you know, even if people don't know who you are, they've heard your music. That's what I think is amazing about composing is like, they may be like, I'm not sure who you are. But immediately you say something like, Oh, I think you said you'll take Downton Abbey to your grave. That's the thing that people will be like,

Speaker 1 2:41
you're on my gravestone, you know, nowadays, yeah. Yeah.

Mike Meiers 2:46
You know, things like that. But also, most recently, I think, you know, with its success, last kingdom, which those two are just polar opposites to me.

Speaker 1 2:55
Yeah. Which was the attraction for me because I was becoming known for Downton Abbey. And actually quite the Well, as you can see from behind me, I do quite like working with electronics as well. So Downton Abbey was a little bit of a, I wouldn't say it was an offshoot, because I've always, I've always done orchestral stuff as well. But, you know, I was becoming known for that kind of sound, you know that and I was getting a little bit typecast. So, when the last kingdom came along, I was really, I was really keen to do it, because I knew it was be radically different, you know? Um, yeah, I mean, you can't, they could they couldn't be further apart.

Mike Meiers 3:35
I mean, especially because last game that's like, ninth century area. So it's just like, What is this, you have kind of this, I feel like this leeway to be like, I can kind of create the sound that I want. Well,

Speaker 1 3:49
you can, well, you you've got complete freedom, because I mean, well, he, you know, our knowledge of what the music was like, in the nine centuries. pretty crude. And, you know, it's unlikely to be it's unlikely to be anything else other than what we think and, you know, and that's not really as a roll of film music, you know, film. Film, music is an it's an artificial genre that grew 100 years ago. Yeah. Basically, in the early, you know, forms of film music were like quite a 19th century classical music, you know, and kind of over, you know, over romanticized and, and overdramatic in many ways, you know, we've kind of moved on quite a lot from that. A lot of what I do, I think is about signaling what's going on inside people's heads in a movie. You know, the things that people don't say, or bother thinking. I'm, I'm not certainly it was a lot, quite a lot of that going on in the last kingdom. And there's a lot of that going on in Downton Abbey as well. And unless you know about chins, and as, you know, taking you from A to B, and it's kind of all, you know, setting up and, and then certainly in the last kingdom, there was the setting up kind of Artemis kind of constant atmosphere of dread, a lot of the time, because it was, you know, people didn't live for very long. You know, in many ways, you know, and then, and then there are these kind of extreme moments of love and happiness, you know that. And so, so we're really concentrated in to those two extremes. And if you think about the music does move from those kind of, you know, beauty to kind of really raw curve, quite ugly, and we use a lot of noise. That's

Mike Meiers 5:44
what I think is interesting. You went very synth based. Where I think if you look at something like I still love the show, like Viking, like a lot of those other shows that popped up, very orchestral hybrid orchestral kind of like realm you chose, let's kind of not go into that. But let's, let's do beds of sound almost what you said, because there's this, these tensions and release where it's a moment of like, they're, they're secretly they have a romantic moment. And the next minute, you've got a massive battle where 1000s are being killed.

Speaker 1 6:22
Yeah. So instead of doing it with kind of, like 19th century harmony, the tension between uses a lot of noise. And then there's a lot of detuning going on, as well. And it's not that tensions can create it that way. And also, at a time, when we're started on the last kingdom, there was a little bit of a worry of comparing it to Game of Thrones, although it's not remotely the same kind of show, because, yeah, it's kind of based on fight, you know, roughly. And, you know, there's no sort of magic elements, you know, and it's not fun to see, I thought one way one way to not, you know, we'd be not to have that kind of sort of corridor Castro kind of element to it. And actually do you know, with something much more much braver in a way, actually, I think, and, and the producers were, it was one of those jobs that just worked out quite well, in that I was due to take a break anyway. And they were still filming last kingdom. So I actually had, I had a little bit of time, you know, they sent me some clips and stuff, which is unusual for me, usually, I wait until the film's locked before I start working on it, you know, it's been edited. But in the last kingdom match, they started off quite early on, you know, long before they locked the first episode, you know, and I had Ivor the singer onboard, as well, before we'd locked you know, I had, I'd already brought her over from Copenhagen, to London, and we taught three days recording, and I knew then that, you know, that we were going to be doing it together,

Mike Meiers 8:09
the mixture of yours, your your sound beds that you create, with her vocal, it's almost like it just works. So well, that now creates this thing, that it's a signature sound to the show.

Speaker 1 8:23
Yeah. So that was so as I said that, you know, we decided not to go down the orchestral route. And there was going to be all electronic. But, I mean, that was easier said than done. I mean, they were, you know, because all these battles, you know, these come, you know, sort of epic, you know, moments, you know, and you know, how the hell am I going to do those, you know, without, you know, just with electronics, and I thought, at one point, I managed to convince myself that was going to be possible. And then my agent, played me our recording of Ivor on YouTube, and she was doing this throat singing but kind of rhythmic, and, you know, quite funky. And she was playing a drum as well. And I thought, Oh, cool. That's interesting. And so, you know, I, in fact, what happened was a nicked the bit of YouTube of her, and I put it over the end of the very first episode, and then I added like, distorted double bass to it on on a an electro synth pad, basically. And I sent it off to the producers and they absolutely loved it. So I thought so I got in touch with her and brought her over to London, and we recorded for three days and and we did loads of different stuff. I mean, she did it because I really didn't know what to expect. I knew she did that rhythmic thing. And she was obviously a good singer but, but she was also she was really kind of trying to be a pop artist at this stage. Which, you know, in 2015 2016, so I really wasn't sure what she was. But I, you know, I mean, she's like a one woman orchestra. You know, she can do everything. I mean, it's just, uh, you know, I mean, she can be like a child, sometimes. Sometimes we've used as like an English choir boy, you know, and then she does this kind of, you know, Screaming Banshee stuff that just stones come from, you know, some other side of hell that we don't even know of yet. You know, kind of, sort of,

Mike Meiers 10:32
she's like a plugin, it's almost like, you switch between modes, and you're just like, I want that. And you're just like, that's insane. But that is the, but it's that combo, that became the sound. Yeah, to me, it's interesting, how you're talking about getting into the emotional head of the viewer. And yeah, to me writing, you know, this side of composing, I think of it as just like how you write for songs, too, because it's like, when you write a song, like if somebody with just their guitar and vocal, they're trying to get into the head of the listener and connect with them, you're trying to connect what they're seeing on picture, and to give a sonic representation of that emotion. And to amplify it even more.

Speaker 1 11:20
Yeah, writing a song on rate and film music are the art kind of slightly different things. But and that was the interesting thing, for both Ivor and I was that I was having to come at it from her point of view, who was basically a singer songwriter. And she was having to come at it from my point of view, in that she was, you know, instead of, of reacting to like chords or feelings or something, I was making her react to picture. Yeah, as well. So she had to learn, she had to learn how to react, emotionally, to picture. And that was quite an interesting exercise in itself. And she got very, very good at that. And we had to kind of develop a language where I'd say, I kind of imply what kind of thing we need to hear. Because, you know, you couldn't write down why, but it, there was absolutely no point in writing the music down. You know, why would you? You don't need her, you know, she's she, she's such a great improviser. And how the hell yeah, could you write half of it down anyway, you know, it's impossible. So not nothing that was not music was ever written down in the last kingdom. It was all performed, was always performed, basically, both by me and Ivor. And then we had a couple of percussion sessions. And then, and then in season three, I badly needed an assistant, I needed a bit of technical help with all this stuff behind me. So I've got my system, I got an assistant who was great, actually, and tundra. And in fact, I'm Danny ended up doing, you know, a lot of season four and a lot of season five. And then, and then he became a became a kind of colleague, really, so the so the three of us ended up doing that, you know, the middle of the movie? Well, when we came to do the soundtrack album, that's when I realized that actually, a lot of what Ivor and I had been doing was kind of like Song material. So and also because she was an artist in our own right, we decided to, for the soundtrack called not to take your the cues exactly as they were in the show, but to actually take the material and, and really turn them into songs. And that's what we've done in the last two albums. So so on both the album's you'll hear stuff you'll hear that never appeared in the show. What

Mike Meiers 13:58
I find brilliant is, you said that she came at it from an angle of like, oh, I have to learn this new skill of learning, you know, for TV and film and kind of invoking and understanding that you came at it from like, I need to understand a little bit of it, both of you were kind of stretched a little bit out of your comfort zone. But it produced something that was really amazing. That worked well. And I think it's a testament to the idea of sometimes pulling yourself out of that comfort zone to see what can you do and what can you How could you create this differently? And how could this build a new skill set for you? Yeah,

Speaker 1 14:35
no, definitely. Definitely as good good for everybody all around. Yeah, I think and funnily enough, I think for either herself, she I made her confront her past in a way, you know, because she, she grew up as a kid singing this kind of stuff, you know, and then, you know, because she's from the Faroe Wales, although she now lives in Copenhagen. Um, but she was kind of trying to be a pop artist, you know, and in some ways, she's probably still is, but no, she, her gig are like gigs. She does music from the last kingdom, though, as well as part of it. So she's kind of RE, I mean, it's a bit much for me to say that, you know, I helped her rediscover ourselves because she's more than capable of doing ourself. But I think it showed her that what, you know, she, she'd learned us as, as a kid growing up, that kind of way of seeing was actually incredibly, incredibly valuable in what she was doing herself. So she's kind of incorporated that by more into our, our own our own music, really. And we have Yeah, we, I mean, we've become really good friends. And unstaged really good friend, those actually,

Mike Meiers 15:50
what I hear from that is, it's almost again, like CO writing, you just set the ground for her to kind of live into that space, and like, oh, this thing that I thought like, I'm not going to do that much. You helped reengage, that you just presented the ground, that space for her to go there. And I think that's the sign of a good co writer. Yeah,

Speaker 1 16:11
I mean, we did work incredibly well together. And in fact, he gives an Occasionally she would send me stuff that she just thought of I'm, and which I'm really not used to doing, I'm really used to creating the groundwork, and then maybe letting somebody else kind of, I don't think I've ever before actually had the groundwork given to me. And then for me to kind of embellish it on top. And that was a quite an interesting, you know, feature, as well for was a really, really good learning exercise for me. And also, you know, composing, composing can be quite a solitary thing, actually. And Allah, we ended up doing quite a lot of it remotely. You know, it's, it's good having somebody to feed back off. And, you know, and just ponder both, you know, I mean, it's, it's basically skirt, I don't do you know, I like collaborating. You

Mike Meiers 17:12
know, this leads to the question, what got you into film and TV, especially composing? How did you get into this role, because I know it's not a straightforward just, oh, I just went on composing, I went down the door, down the street, knocked on the door. And here I am, but like, it's a lot of twists and turns.

Speaker 1 17:29
Well, I studied music at university. But then I came to London, and I got a publishing contract with a pop music label in London, that brought me down to London. And then for a while, in my 20s, I was in two worlds, I was in the kind of classical contemporary world. And I was also in the pop world as well, to kind of try it and, and there, it was a bit of a clash. And then I was in this band that was quite famous in New Britain and Europe in the 80s. And but we were quite experimental. And the music we're doing was quite complicated. So we didn't have much visually to Luca heat. In fight, there was the New Musical Express. New Musical Express once gave us a review. I was actually they were raving about the music, but said behind the stage presence of a stepladder racket. So, which was probably true, partially. And, but so one of the things we did do is we got involved with contemporary dance companies. So we do, we kind of used that we'd write music, you know, with them. And we started doing these shows with contemporary dancers, and maybe, eventually the band's blow up. But I carried on working with a dance companies. And I did discover that find, I did like writing music that had some kind of programmatic storyline element to it. And I find that I could do that now. And it came quite naturally to me. And then when I was about 31, or 32, you know, I was in London, there was lots of connections I was working in not so much in media, but there was with the dance world, there was quite a lot of producers and directors kind of involved in theater, and stuff. And, you know, I just, somebody asked me to do a music for a TV series, and they just fired somebody and, you know, could I step in at last one when I did, and, and as soon as I did, I knew, right. Okay, that's it. That's what I want to do. I probably wasn't, you know, I was probably 31 or 32. But then, I had had 10 years in London, performing just about every style of music, you know, from jazz to pop to contemporary, classical opera, you name it, because that's kind of what you have to do. You know, you don't, you know, every, you know, I'm doing stuff from Downton Abbey to last kingdom, you know, within, sometimes, you know, both at the same time that gets

Mike Meiers 20:18
switching, you know, the brain switching gears from being in that, you know, if you take things like Downton Abbey and things you've done like Grantchester Shetland and then you move over to suddenly, boom, you know, that is a huge shift to think of, like, how are you going to pull these melodies or the sound that you're creating? They're all vastly different. Yep.

Speaker 1 20:40
In fact, I've just, I've just moved on from we just finished Shetland about two weeks ago, and I'm already on to Grandchester Hall. Oh, okay. Yeah, on the new the new new series is Shetland does really good. Yeah, you probably Oh, no, no,

Mike Meiers 20:55
it's not I we were still waiting. Because when I interviewed you, I was like, I wanted to do a deeper dive. And I was like, Oh, shit, like, I was like, well watch, we binge the entire series. But I also loved some of the, you know, again, the sound as you create I was like, because in my mind, I'm kind of like, comparing them on like a, here's the Downton Abbey ROM, here's the last kingdom, Rome. Here's the Shetland, Rome. And I'm like, Okay, it's just like, there's a little organic, but then I hear some like tension and release of, and then some building of like, synth pulses. But then I hear drums, and I hear some pulses. Again, it's like, you know, that feels like a heartbeat to me, this is St. I can understand why you're like, you have to be versed in many different charts. You can't just, if you're in one lane, everything is going to lean towards this direction, you've got to be able to pull from a couple of different genres so that you can create those those different fields in those different scenes. Yeah, the pacing is different in every, every show there. It's different. Yeah, I guess my next question would be because while there's so many questions I want to get into but it's it's interesting that you say you had a pop background, because part of me is like, you know, I can hear some of that in the melodies. I can hear some of that in. But it's it's done in a way that if you didn't say like, I had a pot background, somebody would be like, Okay, you just know how to write good melodies, but it's like, that has to help. When you're coming into writing a hook or looking like, Oh, here's my moment where I will have a melodic hook. That's very front and center. It needs like when you hear it, you go, Oh, it's the show. Like, it's immediately

Speaker 1 22:36
Yeah, I mean, definitely, you know, I mean, like, like the, you know, the theme for Shetlands, kind of like a song. You know, it's got those caught those phrases, you know, what that just that kind of answer one URL are really a is a bit like a song that went down to the slightly different I think in that, you know, all the elements kind of sort of mesh together that kind of more or less, more like a modular thing, really rather not, you know, sort of song with accompaniment, although, to be honest with you, Denton has got the veneer of classical music, but actually, it's got the harmony of I mean, the title theme could be a Coldplay song.

Mike Meiers 23:17
That's what's amazing about it. Yeah, you're, you're very upfront about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 23:21
Yeah. You know, of course, you know, a minor, F major, A minor, F major, G major over F 20, was kind of like a Scotland, like a fourth chord on E, and then ends on our C major seven. So,

Mike Meiers 23:37
I love that because I think that's a great testament to, you know, maybe people think like, they try to overcomplicate things because they think overcomplicating will make it interesting, not necessarily, yes, right? There has that always been your motto to when it comes to composing.

Speaker 1 23:54
I'm not sure that it's become my my motto, but it's, it's become obvious, as I've worked in film, that that level of simplicity is what makes it work. Because you're competing with other things. You know, in film, you're competing with dialogue and visuals, and sound effects as well. And that all of those are contributing to the meaning that's going on as well. So you have to find your, you know, your own space within that, and, and interact with it. And you can only really do that, you know, when the music's really obvious, and really, really simple. But that can take time. You know, people think, you know, that, you know, we didn't Downton Abbey, theme tune is incredibly simple. You know, it really is very simple. But it took three weeks, took me three weeks to write it. You know? So what, you know, does that make it simple? Or does that mean you know, it's all white notes.

Mike Meiers 24:55
This just gets into me that the interesting realm of composing whether you're doing it for fun MTV songwriting it's, it's all about connection. It's about enhanced. If you're writing a song, it's about working with your melody, your lyrics, enhancing the feeling. When you're writing for film and TV, it's enhanced the all those things that you talked about the visuals, the dialogue, what is happening and finding your place in there to enhance all of that and not fight it, and not deter or make somebody go like, I was paying attention. But what the hell are they doing here? Like, it's like, it's, it's not going to work then. But sometimes it is a while to get there. Because it's that balance. Sometimes simple can be the hardest thing to find, because you'll want to overcomplicate it, but it's just, I feel even when I'm mixing something, or working on arrangement, it's always I'm eliminating things. I'm like, taking things away, because I'm like, Oh, I take it away. And I don't miss it. Like it wasn't adding anything other than me being like, oh, it's it's it needed to be there.

Speaker 1 25:58
Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, when you say simple, you know, I mean, that can mean a multitude of things. Yeah, a lot of what I do is still you know, very instinctual, I, you know, I watch the scene over and over again. And I, I improvise to the scene. I think one thing that makes a composer is that ability to when you have played something, is to recognize that you've actually created something, if there's something in there that makes you go, Oh, what was that? What did I just do there? You know, and it's that ability to recognize that and then take it on board and undeveloped it. I think that's what, that's why I, you know, I do I spend a lot of time improvising to the picture, I very rarely improvise away from looking at the picture. Because I end up making it too complicated. You know, music just on its own to meet sometimes you can, you can overcomplicate things. So I'm constantly looking at the, the scene in front of me, and playing it over and backwards and forwards again. And sometimes I can spend days not getting anywhere, you know, and then suddenly, some sparkle hearten. And then you just bits having that ability, experience opens as well of being able to hone in on what it was, that gave you that little spark. And that's kind of that's what I'm looking for, you know, all the time, really. So I've been doing a little bit of teaching with a tiny little bit, and then we're doing a little bit of mentoring. And whichever have been found interesting, because it does confront what you do. You know, I think that what I do, is kind of constantly, in instinctive, but actually, you know, our reasons for a lot of it I that I just hadn't really explained to myself, and then when you haven't to teach somebody about it, as you do, you have to step back and think, right, okay, why? Why have it? No, oh, I see. That's why I do that. But one thing with all my students, and it's difficult for them, because usually there are time constraints on the things that we're going to do. But by and large, absolutely, all of them are T happy to go with the first thing that comes into their head. Don't sometimes that can be right, I mean, occasionally, but not not enough for them. And then and then what will happen is we'll spend a lot quite a lot of time trying to mold that very initial material into something meaningful, you know, whereas, actually, you know, the first idea will really wasn't not good. The second idea wasn't really that good. You know, the third idea? No, maybe not. The fourth idea, Fuck, yeah. Great. And then suddenly, you're away you don't spend all that time trying to mango something that you know, that wasn't there into something, you know, that me and so I I'm, I'm quite often will rip things up and start again.

Mike Meiers 29:24
I love ripping the I love just because it I think it challenges you too. It's like, you know, we sat down and wrote a song. It's just like, okay, that course isn't bad. Can we write a better course we probably can't. If we do it again. Cool. Let's push ourselves and write another, we probably can write a better, we probably it just pushes the realm of just when you think there's something that that was pretty good. There's probably something better if you do it again and repeat the process and refine it a little bit and do it again. Because you're right. It's hard to take something maybe the first draft and try to make it meaningful when the whole point of the first draft was just to give you practice, it's kind of hard to make that. Deepen, like, make it work when it's just like, oh, the point of that was just to give yourself some footing and just play around.

Speaker 1 30:13
And it is hard and a teaching sense as well, because you're kind of time constraints on the students as well. Like when I first do a TV series, for instance, the first thing I'll look at is the shedule. And I always want, I want as much time on Episode One as possible, because if I get episode one, right, then episodes two to 10 are gonna fall in place. You know, if I don't get episode one, right, and there's a bit of a struggle timewise this is going to lead lead to problems further down the line, you know, so yeah, I usually try and ask for like six weeks for the first episode. And then if the next ones are every two weeks, they'll be fine. You know, it's just making sure that your material is very, is really strong. You know, and if you look at Downton Abbey, all that most of the material, even to the movie, last movie, you know, much of the material was created in a very, very first episode. And it's the same with the last kingdom. You know, most of the material comes from the very first episode.

Mike Meiers 31:21
That to me is also insight in to how much thought you give to that, because you're thinking long term, you think to that first episode, because you're thinking, this is going to paint the story arc going forward, this is going to be the continuous sound, because it can't be something that just, you know, one minute sounds like this next episode is like murder. And that's always like, what the hell? It changed dramatic. It's like, there has to be some some consistency, long term with the whole thing.

Speaker 1 31:52
Yeah, yeah, I mean, a lot of what I'm doing is kind of unifying it on. And downs in a lot of the music's about the relationships between characters, really, rather than individual characters. But if you look at that opening theme, it's got like four main elements to it. It's got the Dan, Dan, Dan, Dan Dean, and, and the main sort of solo piano tune, it's got this rising thing, string tune, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, the DA, which is much more sort of emotive, and it's got this kind of very repetitive sort of piano dinner that the, and then there's this sort of more expansive chord change at the end, which is much more kind of pompous, it's got like a dominant seventh, but in the forest and version, and those all those four elements, they can work together as one, but each one of them on on their own, can be something else, as well. So for instance, you could you can do a really slow version of the data at the end. You can do, you know, just on its own, with, you know, different harmony underneath, if I did do that as well. And then the rising string chin, again, with different under harmony underneath, you know, you can, it's still, it's still like chin, but it can take on an even more tragic, meaning. You know, I ended up developing that gene for some of the more tragic moments, you know, in the TV series. It's all kind of interlocking like that. So the materials, kind of, especially in danger, the materials quite modular, in that. There's lots of different elements going on, but they can all be used separately, or, but it can also be used together, as well.

Mike Meiers 33:55
Hey, it's Mike. And I just wanted to jump in the middle of this episode. And if you're listening, and you're getting excited about writing for TV and film, and you're like, huh, I would love to do this. But how do I know what's working? What should I be writing? I'm so confused. It's all over the place. That's why you need to be a part of our Insider's track membership. It's all about helping you understand what's working for TV and film so that you can start writing the right type of songs, the songs that actually start working for TV and film, start working for the scene so that when you see these opportunities pop up, submit this song for licensing, get to meet this supervisor, get to meet get to meet, you don't have to question and wonder are my songs working? You've put in the time and you've been a part of a community that helps you shape and craft the songs that do work for TV and film. So what I want you to do right now is go to Insider's dash track.com Or just click the link in our description and sign up you're going to get right now listeners of this podcast. are gonna get $100 discount for a full year's access to our membership, you can start joining our lives, you could start diving into past sessions past guest sessions, and you can start joining for future guests sessions. So when all those opportunities pop up, guess what? You don't have to wonder you don't have to question. You've got the songs ready. So remember, just go to Insider's dash track.com and start creating songs that work for TV and film.

What I love is you are singing out parts. And for me sometimes it's like when I know something feels right, I can kind of sing it out before I play it. Or if I'm playing something, I'm singing out the next thing and I'm like, Oh, that'd be cool. It's almost like they're again, they intertwine they work together, yet. They're very strong, independently. And that can be another version. And I just Yeah, I don't know, I just love the idea sometimes of like saying it before you play it to just like, you know, because it runs through your head and you can hear things.

Speaker 1 36:07
Uh, yeah, well, when I'm improvising, you know, I'm not just playing the piano and stuff. I'm almost a singing away to myself. I mean, God knows what it sound might sound like at times. But luckily, nobody's usually. So

Mike Meiers 36:24
there should be, there should be an alternative version, where it's just an album of you, you just sing out the parts and just blend them together. I think that to me saying before you play, it is always just a great rule of thumb, because we talked about this when you were with my class, but like, why I love things. Because when people look at me, they assume like it's just nothing but punk rock that I listened to. And I'm like, no, no, it's just like, but we talked about, I think the beauty of someone like a composer like Bach is I can sit there and I could sing you. You know, sheep may safely graze. I could sing you the melody of you know, sleepers awake. I could sing you know minuet and Chi because I'm like, damn, Bach was basically like a pop songwriter. Like he was like, during that time, I'm like, here's a pop song writer. He's writing all these melodies counter melodies that just intertwine and they're so strong independently. But how they weave together?

Speaker 1 37:20
Yeah, definitely. I mean, Chopin. Definitely not. Yeah, I mean, shutdown was an improviser? Basically, yeah. I mean, he's kind of Yeah, give us probably like a, b. He was a pop musician of his own era, really,

Mike Meiers 37:36
I think recognizing that, that, you know, it's like pop music isn't something that's, it's kind of slowly, it just looked different. We, they just had wigs. And they just, they had harpsichords. And they had scifi. And it was like, but that was like a modern day pop where everybody went, and I thought the power of their melodies are, there was no, there was no way that an audience could take that with them. They couldn't throw on their iPad, they couldn't throw on their phone. It was just the moment of being present and hearing their melody. But how many of them took away a moment?

Speaker 1 38:09
I mean, the amalgamation of your people things like you know, Chopin and find them. But there are Marga nation with black music, you know, or 100 120 years ago. I mean, that's a massive change. You know, the last 120 years in music is all about the influence of black and black music. You know, it's completely transformed. It's completely kind of song was turned music on its head, basically. And you know, that combination has created a whole other, you know, amazing genre. Really, you know that? Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, I'm really, I've always been a big fan of accounting. And I thought I knew his music really well. But recently, I had a haven't looked, I was looking at a book. And it's just there. It's one of those, you know, cheap music books, but it's just a tune. And there's a chord current chart underneath. And it's really made me think about what he does. I mean, the harmony is just so extraordinary. But you know, don't do that, you know, some of the stuff he did 100 years ago. And it's really made me think about it, Rael, it really onca however, I'm playing the chin with my right hand, by moderner. Think all the time about the harmony. I've learned so much. You know, and I'm in my 60s. I'm thinking to myself, why didn't I do this? You know, four years ago, you know, cuz it's an extraordinary learning experience. Now,

Mike Meiers 39:44
there's something I just don't want to skip over that I think is awesome about that. And I think it's, you're constantly looking for ways to just be amazed by music and just like take back a little bit and you deconstructing something or looking at it, and being like, Oh, this is just changing the game of how I view things now, like, I'm, it's just another piece of knowledge where I feel like sometimes people think, oh, when you get a degree or if you just do this, that's where the learning ends. And I'm like this is it's actually just where it begins. Oh God, no tear disorder, I think.

Speaker 1 40:20
Yeah. Oh, don't go. Oh, no, no, no, I'm constantly learning all the time. Yeah, I mean, even, you know, with all this electronic stuff at the back as well, I'm, I'm constantly learning. You meet me I mean, musics an incredible thing, really, you know, when you think about it, and all the incredible stuff that people have done. But you know, some of it written down. Love it not not remotely written down. You know, I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, to turn. I mean, like, you know, James Brown, that early funk stuff to turn a dominant seventh into tonic, you know, you know, not even Wagner marriage that, you know, that's, that's astonishing, really, you know? I mean, obviously, you know, as I get older, they're sat there is a, it does, there is some, you know, styles of music, it do take me a while to kind of, you know, Brauch and kind of, you know, get into your neck, you know, that I don't spend much that you know, I'm not in clubs all the time trying, trying to work out, you know, yeah. But if like, one of my wife's cousin's from Australia came over and stayed with us for about two, three weeks. And he's trying to be like, a full time DJ, and I've got no idea what that means. What is?

Mike Meiers 41:46
Yeah, it's a completely different way, right? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 41:49
he's playing records to people, or I mean,

Mike Meiers 41:51
some are strange, but it's interesting. But yeah, it's just, you're still looking for ways to just get inspired, or things take you back. And it's just, that is the power of music, that it can make a connection that, especially in this realm of composing when someone hears, it's it's an interesting question to ask, what's the feeling of this is leading to something that feels questionable, that no matter what language you may have that chord or that sound that you're creating, makes it feel like something's coming? Or it's just like, oh, that's, that would that was a dodgy question. That was something that was weird. There's something beautiful about composing in that way.

Speaker 1 42:29
Yeah, it's, I mean, it constantly surprises me. And I, you know, I've done so much. Now, I must have done over 100 different projects. Although, I must admit, as I get older, that the pressure or because everybody wants a piece of genius for their show. And that's pretty pressurizing you know, all the time. And, you know, eventually you can think, oh, you know, can I really ever really got the energy to do it. But something funny that happens when you put the episode on the scene, and you start to play with and you think, oh, okay, all right. Okay. And then some kind of, I'm kind of addicted to it. Yeah, I'll miss it when I don't do it.

Mike Meiers 43:20
That to me is also when you know, you've kind of sparked there's a book I love. It's called The Big Leap, and it's by Gay Hendricks and talks about the zone of genius. What's the thing that makes you feel like totally on fire? And what you're describing, right? There is like, you wonder, like, do I have it in me to just do it again. But then you start the process again, you go, Oh, this is why I do it. It's almost like it takes you back to that first time that you can build, and you were like, well, this is it. This is the thing that I'm doing, because this is where it's

Speaker 1 43:45
not? Yeah, well, that's kind of part of the addiction is that, you know, there's incredible pressure to do that, then, but then the payoff, once you've done it, you know, is so massive, and everybody particularly in, you know, within a film because, you know, you're not entirely on your own, you're working with other people. And you are and that is, you know, very much a collaboration with, you know, producer and director. And, but once you've done something that really works, and really makes a difference here, you know, everybody's really appreciative. And it's, it's that kind of buzz that you get off it, I think I would really miss. But despite that, every time I come to a new project, thinking, you know, oh my god, how am I gonna bring this one off, you know, or, you know, this, this is the one I'm going to be found out on, you know, kind of, you know, because, you know, amazingly, I still have moments like that, you know, I still have days where I write complete rubbish, and that's and that's hard, you know, to get to spend a couple of days especially with some of the schedules we have now. You know, spending a couple of days not having any show for it is He's quite, it's quite tough. There is

Mike Meiers 45:03
an assumption where people think well, oh, if you've done all this now, it's just you sit down and everything's gold. Like, you're just like, Yeah, but the idea of knowing like, Oh, you've got several days where you feel like shit, this is Nope, this, isn't it? Yeah. And it's interesting, because there's some people that get to that point in their writing, they're composing, and they go, this, isn't it, I guess I'm not meant to do and then they leave. But there are others that go this shit. Well, I got to push through, and eventually I'm going to get to where it needs to be. But there's just this weird, awkward moment of just like, just the slow trudge to finding, what is the thing as opposed to just bailing? And then

Speaker 1 45:41
it can be even harder after you've had something really successful? You know, everybody thinks, oh, well, you know, that, you know, they're expecting something, you know, along the same lines. And, and actually, without realizing just what hard work it was to come up with a, you know, with a first thing in, you know, in itself, I suppose what we're trying to say is, in the long run, is that, although you might have might have had, you know, a serious degree of success in what we're trying to do. We're basically much still much in the same state, as we were, you know, a student in our early 20s. You know, really, you know, it's still thinking, Oh, God, I mean, how am I going to do this? You know, I'm still I'm really there, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not thinking, you know, I'm John line, I've done don't now, b this is, this is gonna be a doddle. You know, I mean, you know, it's not, it's not like that at all, you know, in some, some in many ways, my, you know, my psychological well being hasn't moved on in the last 40 years. And then you don't want that baby, that's possibly a good thing. You know, that it is possible to get to, you know, to over yourself and to and think that you really are a genius and that actually, I will keep was it said, I think it was a golf. Eisley said the year the harder I practice, the luckier I get. But somebody accused him of being lucky or something I can't. That's right, said the harder a practice the luckier I get, which I think is a great phrase, because, you know, I don't think there's any luck involved in writing music. Really, would you say? Is that luck? Is there such a thing as luck?

Mike Meiers 47:35
I don't think there's a such a thing as luck. I think it's those that just stay with it that are willing to be okay with the messiness of music at times, because that's tough, it's a very uncomfortable thing to tell someone like, you know, if I have a client or a student, I say, like, you're gonna have to be okay with being uncomfortable for a while, it's not going to be good. Like, I have hard drives full of just shit. Like, and I've never shown this and I'm never gonna show is there anyone? Yeah, but I'm okay with that. Because you know, what's great, I look at that now. And that was me learning. And that was me performing at my best. That was me, like, really being like, this is good. And now I'm like, Oh, that was it was okay. But I stayed with it. And the only difference between someone doing it and not doing is they just stayed with it. Yeah, I think that's the key and, or being a perpetual student, how you're saying, like, you're still looking at someone else's work and being like, ship, that's amazing. And just like dissecting it and finding the gold, and then just going back to their space and playing along and just, it's a new thing that's integrated to their process. Yeah,

Speaker 1 48:46
I think the, I mean, the perpetual student thing, I think, is a bit of a problem, because that sort of implies that you don't, you know, you're always you're always working on something, and you're not, but you know, at some point, you're gonna have to give birth to it and present it to the outside world. You know, I mean, and there's, you know, the sooner you do that, the better really, I mean, you can, you know, if you keep on thinking, because also, I think that's also part of it, because you can't, you can't just use yourself as a benchmark in music, I think. I think you have to use others as well, either. So what you think might be brilliant, you know, the rest of the world could completely hate I mean, it's not rare if that arms three honest but you know, it's entirely possible so you do so I'd I'd be wary of the perpetual student syndrome, you know, and yeah, and you know, I'm not gonna release anything until I'm really really happy with it. Human I've kind of gone against what most said myself, you know, either you should work on new material till here till you're really really happy with it. But so, but some somewhere in There, I'm kind of contradicting myself. But somewhere in there is is a kind of is a sort of truth is that you, you're gonna have to, you know, give it out to people to hear, I think I grew up with a couple of people who I thought were really good musicians. And I would describe him as perpetual students, they never really placed their neck on the block. And they were always going to be, they were always full of potential. And they never ever realized that. I

Mike Meiers 50:33
think we know that I dealt lots of people that are in that same boat that are fantastic. But they've never stepped beyond, they've never taken that first step of, and maybe it's just like, you know, my, my skin has gotten stronger over time to just like, cool. Give me the give me the feedback of what is not working. It's, you know, I feel that's where I'm at. Now, I don't mind hearing when something's working. I'm like, that's great. But I'm kind of interested in what's not working, like, Where's the hole? And there's got to be something because it's like, it's not the best, like, it's okay. How can it get better? Because, yeah, you do want to work on it. And I agree, I think what you're saying is, don't give the first thing, but by, you know, the 60s 70 areas, to eventually have to get it out there. Because if you get that feedback, you can then go back and adjust and you can and the next thing you create is basically the knowledge that you gained from releasing and learning from it. And you realize, well, if I do that, again, I'll, I'll get better. And I'll get better, as opposed to constantly revising it to its perfect where it's not going to be perfect. It's just going to be it's in fact, make it worse, because you're just you may be taking some of the gold out of it that you don't know, because he never taught never fully embraced actually showing someone it know

Speaker 1 51:59
Exactly, yeah. You know, and that can be hard. Right? You know, it's

Mike Meiers 52:03
tough. It's super tough. It's a very vulnerable feeling to say to someone, tell me what's wrong?

Unknown Speaker 52:10
Yeah.

Mike Meiers 52:13
You know, did you have as especially grown people that you kind of look to that we're doing the thing that you want to do that we're able to kind of guide you along? I'm sure there's lots of people that you can think of that. But is there someone that stuck out to you that kind of guided you especially during as you developed in film?

Speaker 1 52:30
No, there wasn't really? Because, I mean, given my ego, there was no way you could go and study it. I mean, now there are you know, there are there are hundreds of film courses all over the world now. No one there was nowhere. There's nobody, I guess, the kind of, you know, I'd probably been watching lots of movies, and just taking it all in. But yeah, no, I did, I had to learn really quickly. That's

Mike Meiers 52:55
amazing. But I love the fact that you're also and this is a sign of someone that I think is not just a great composer, but just like you're also taking that knowledge and helping others because it's one thing to be applied to the things that you do, but to help other people understand and navigate, I think is huge.

Speaker 1 53:13
I do I feel really strongly about that. Because as I said, there was nowhere, you know, I could go to study really what I was meant to do. And, and and, and film musics, you know, changing, and it's changed over the years as well. And I think and it's been good for me I you know, I learn why a lot by by doing a giving back. You know, but I'm getting to the end of my career now. So I think it's important for me to impart my experience to, you know, the next generation I think, guys, yeah, I think that's just what I should be doing. John,

Mike Meiers 53:52
this was such a good conversation. I feel we could keep on going. It's like we haven't even I'm just like, I'm just like I it's like we could go into analog synths and just how they're amazing. But oh, maybe

Unknown Speaker 54:03
we should do an analog synth one in six months.

Mike Meiers 54:05
I think we need to do an analog synth one because I love there's just something about it. We're in a world of plugins, which is amazing and wonderful. But there's something about being able to just like I have off to the side, my little sturdy, trusty like mode to the side that has always been my go to for when it's like making something interesting and just like to put my hand on like modulation and just like do filter sweeps. It's just Oh no, there's something about it. That's different than just I mean.

Speaker 1 54:36
Yeah, I hardly use any plugins. I mean, it's mainly all mainly all sense. Yeah,

Mike Meiers 54:42
that's another we got a whole Yeah, but, John, I really appreciate you taking the time. pleasure, Mike.

And that does it for this week's episode. It was edited and produced by Chris cause for failure. And remember, if you're enjoying these episodes and you like the content that we're putting out, be sure to head to Apple podcasts. Leave us a five star review, talk about your favorite episode, and then share share in episode with a friend because every little bit helps, believe me, we wouldn't be here at 101 episodes without you. Until next week, I'm Mike Myers. Thanks for listening

Transcribed by https://otter.ai