Episode 103: Melody, Music, or Lyrics?

 Songwriting is a craft, one that has many different approaches and perspectives on what to develop and work on. In this episode MIke Meiers and Madeline Finn begin the episode discussing which is the most important aspect of a song: Music, Lyrics or Melody. What do you think it is? You might be surprised at their answer.

From cornerstone tips for lyricists, to framework strategies to help melody makers overcome fears and boost confidence in musical choices, this episode offers invaluable guidance.

If you tend to get stuck in holding patterns with your songs, take a half hour and delve into the importance of intentionality and a growth mindset so you can work towards crafting unforgettable songs.

So Madeline I gotta ask what is the most important thing? Melody? Lyrics music Trick question they're all mother loving important so if you're wondering, are they actually going to pick one? No, they all matter there but I think we tend to have a certain thing that is a strength that we tend to fall to some people say they're great lyricist. Some people say I'm great melody, they feel comfortable with their instrument but usually there's a deficiency or there's a lack of you know, one or more of those three things and the problem is if you stay in that land of always being the thing that you're that you're editing you know, let's say if you're great with lyrics and all you do is you revise and then you revise more and we're into like the fourth revision of verse one and somebody goes Hey, what's your melody? yeah yeah yeah so that would be an example of like a redundancy if you're saying like I'm and then the next one I'm and then I'm again it's like okay like I get the point is there another way that we could say this or could we cut this or could we say something different and yeah huh you just said something really cool Could you explain the show me Don't tell me the thing get pumped here we go what is it
Yes, sold me I love that song red dress party
yeah

yeah, but what I love is when Michael did that with you, you know, I think some people are worried like, oh, is this gonna take like, there's gonna take hours, but you know, five minutes you just go through and just do a quick check. I feel like it's almost like a little pit stop. Like, you'll see him go around. And just like hey, let's just check in really quick. And let's take a look cool. Let's make these adjustments. Let's move on. We'll do the same thing again. And we can do a bigger revision later on. But just you describing that, I feel is a bit of the process. So again, that's a thing for lyrics. What about melody like, you know, for people that are because I do hear this. A lot. People say I struggle with melody, and I think they struggled too with trying to get the perfect melody and they never allow their idea to fully like come out they're already judging what it is before they even say it and so they just bite their tongue and they're like I don't have anything but meanwhile they they have a catalyst on their tongue who Oh yeah

know that that makes sense because the best way to scribe especially now there's so much we're inundated more and more with so much music, whether it be songs that we love, whether it be on our shows, whether it be on social media, ads, web only ads, Instagram only ads all over the place. So it has to be memorable. But you said something to about that I find interesting that you have to be confident to and just make the choice and the decision would you say to because from what you're describing all these things, these are frameworks these frameworks that I think build up confidence so that when you step into that realm of a new write a professional right whether it be writing for an artist reading you know you're signed to a publisher you're writing for sake you're writing for yourself whatever it is that there's some sort of process and framework for you to go through this

you there so I think if you're listening to this, just hit the just rewind back and just go back through it again But what I think is super important too is maybe where people get frustrated. They're trying to, they have no framework and they're trying to do every, every one of those steps you mentioned at once. It's like pouring the concrete and trying to paint at the same time, there's nothing there's nothing there to do. It's like it's there's nothing there. And maybe that's bad analogy, but I think that's the important thing, you don't see the back catalogue of working up to that it does look like now we can sit down and write a couple songs, do some edits, do a little bit of recording in the same day, go get some lunch, go do this and then come back and be like, Oh, we can do another one. Because we wrote like hundreds and hundreds of songs. Just five songs will not get you there. And I think that's the tough thing for a lot of people is you have to write so how you become you know, we've talked about lyrics and get that process down. We've talked about melody and get that process done. That has to be part of just the writing process in which you write and that has to be priority. And if it's not it's tough for my mind to be like how if somebody goes like well not yet and it's like what and then what do you mean not yet what are you waiting for? You have to start implementing these things.

yeah something completely different. Yeah. And it's interesting because that scenario that you're describing of like, yeah, it might be a bad song. And that might seem to someone starting out like an awful scenario and I'm like, but the scenario you're currently in which is zero songs is even worse, because I would rather you have five horrible songs, but you've started to gain some insight to how you write and you're further ahead than where you are right now and you think where you are right now is the safe the safe thing, but it's actually be worse thing and the longer you sit here, the harder it is to get to that next point, or the more work you're gonna have to put into it.

it's okay, you there's many, many occurrences that can be had here. So I feel what's interesting too about that you have to learn from it. And the scenarios you're describing to have everyone that you help it to me, it helps to have a guide that's there that is watching over the process and guiding you along not saying do this, do this, do that. But starting to understand how you work, how, where your strengths line can also highlight that, so that you kind of get out of your own head. But then you realize, oh, I do need I do have to pick a melody. You're right. I've been I've just, you know, I've written 25 versions of verse one. But I can't sing to you what verse one, which gets to the point of the music side of it. I think for you know, starting out with, you know, this company and just, you know, this podcast and focusing mainly on guitar, I'm like, your chord voicings, you can have the most gorgeous melody and the best lyrics. But man if you got wrong chord where I'm like, I don't even you're telling me something sad and that's like, super happy as it's ironic or like, did you just like go like that? It's a chord. I feel like sometimes chords are the thing that gets slapped on and I'm like, you gotta be thinking that as you're developing both of those things like they you got to check into that.

it doesn't end it doesn't one of the first guests I had Ali Mosh she, this analogy still sticks with me. She was like, an Olympic athlete, never dishes a coach, they just get a better coach. And so I think that's the thing too, that people have to realize. If you get into this idea of bettering yourself with coaching and they're pushing you. It's not there's never going to be a point where you go like, cool. I can check it out now, like I've learned all I can do, it's just like, Are you kidding me? You're just at a new level. So you got to get someone else and they have to like, You got to up your game, and you got to do it again. But I love the idea that you're, you know, that goes back to what you're saying listening like listening into your head, what is the chord that you hear? And can you hold that note? And then can you find that note? That to me is an awesome skill to have people write that, you know, that was one thing that I used to think like, oh yeah, everyone does that. Everybody's just like, these chords and I'm like Oh, we could try a different voicing you know, we can mix it up because it feels a little bit different as his what now and it's like, oh, it's like these. Oh, these are new Ah, I can't do them. Well, you could practice them. And you can get better at that over time. Because ultimately, that's what leads to better songs. uncomfortableness leads to better developed skills, which lead to a better soft sell sounds. Like it sounds silly as I'm, like, say it, but it's like, the thing you're running away from is the thing you need to embrace, which will help you develop and grow which will help get to the thing that right now you really really want, which is great songs, or consistency and writing that it isn't just like this random, like, I got a great song. And now I've got 12 Terrible songs, that you've got some sort of formula. And they all work together. This this beautiful kind of intertwining between lyrics, melody and the chords you choose the whole matter because they're all equally important. And it's, it's, but it's funny when you say it out loud. And sometimes I know, there's probably a lot of people that are listening are like, oh, oh, I am in my own. Sometimes when we hear like a description, we're like, oh, that sounds awful. Wait, wait a minute, that's what I'm doing. It's just that that shaking, but the realization, that's okay, I think everybody does. At some point, we all fall into the things that we're comfortable with. But the important thing is recognizing it. And, you know, for some people, it's taking a course, I still say the best, the best solution always is having a mentor and a coach, look at what you do. And devise a plan from there. If you truly want to get better if you truly want to develop if you truly want to do whether it is you know, get a publishing deal. Whether it is right for artists consistently and it's gonna have a publishing deal. It's just like independent artists you meet along the way and you just feel like you can understand their voice and connect. If you want to do licensing consistently. You gotta have you gotta have framework structure and have very clear process and if you feel like it's been like, you know, you know thrown stuff to the wall that's where it's like start with a song critique and then start and understand some basics of where you are and then move to that next level. that's the I think that's going to be the word of the podcast where did the day is intentional? Cause you can be with your writing you can be with all of those things. They can be very intentional. That's true, because if it isn't, then it is a very random who knows what you're gonna get an A, or you hope it turns out? Well, I hate hope songwriting, I hope is no. Yeah. I feel the first couple of songs were just to get to know. It was like getting to know you. Just like, you know, don't you know, watch? Oh, shit, but no, it's true. And it's because now when we sit down, I'm not worried about like, it's a roll of the dice. It's like, No, this is what we do. And this is how it goes. We're actually just going to heighten and raise the expectation. What we may have written three years ago, four years ago that we would have gone like awesome. That's great. We're gonna that's us. Now we go like Oh, sound bad. We could probably write five more that are way better because the standards have moved up. The Yeah, everything has just changed because it's like a new level because cool. We've gotten a lot of placements from the songs but we want higher placements and we want to do a lot more. So I think they need to be like this now. So this is our new standard of measuring It's that developing of like the mature songwriter that realizes I've got these goals and I really want to do this but I'm going to choose to not just sit around but I'm going to develop I'm going to write more I'm going to implement the feedback if they say like this is you know, I noticed there's some repetition here that you're doing this again. Cool, I'm gonna try the opposite I never do this, it's probably going to be a little messy. But I know I need to go there to get the result or the goals that I really want. Like yeah, you could put that song out that you know was advised not to and it might do well or no one will listen to it. Just this yeahI, it was the, I think it's the eagerness of just like I just want to just I just want to put so I hear that a lot where people will actually want to put something out and put something out I'm like, okay, there I think there's two ends of the spectrum there's either I want to release something I just got to put something out and there's another one that's like I'm going to sit here and think for another five years about my first move both of them drive me insane where I want the middle ground songwriter that is maturing and being like listen, I've got to develop this I'm going to write a lot because I know I'm going to find the right one and when I do I know that's going to be the sound and the process that I'm just going to tweak and refine and develop over time because all these steps got me here so I'm going to do it again, and I think you have Yeah, you have to do the wraps because in what other you know what other area do you just jump in and everything's perfect and you're most perfect No, that's not how it works. You have to do the reps you have to because that that songwriting muscle isn't fully developed and you're kind of kidding yourself if you think it is...oh, say that again say that again. I think what you just the whole the whole thing When it comes to, you can do things for years, but you can also be doing the same thing for a really long time and nothing develops at a business coach and I remember he was in a call and he was talking about, you know, there was someone that said, I've been doing a forklift, you know, I've been driving forklift for I have 40 years of experience. And he goes, No, you learn how to operate a forklift in the first two weeks. And then you've been doing it since that. That's it. And it's like, Whoa, it's that kind of stuff right there. That you do. And it's interesting you say, and people go I don't want to be uncomfortable and I'm like, hey, that's just learning that feeling that's just learning that's what learning is. When you were a kid and there was an alphabet and you were like, What the hell is the system? I don't know this. You didn't go like ah shit. I'm just I'm just gonna just I'm just gonna just do yeah I saw your posts where you had you had your little binoculars to the side and I was like that's amazing. My dad bird watches he he has a book and he has binoculars and he he yeah I'm just learning facts about you and like I'm like you know it's like bird watching I remember you were like I'm in this like we were in a right and I'm like, What are you looking at? He was like soccer score and like did you and I'm like I'm like what you watch soccer now and then you alerted me to the fact that we live in a city that like a soccer team and I'm just apparently it because I saw more and more people post about it and I was like, and I was like I guess there's a second that's probably going to be cold that's an it's probably good. Yeah, it's gonna be cold. Which really isn't that cold in Nashville. But I'm like, what? It's just gonna be watching people kick a ball I think you enjoy the camaraderie of it. I think that's the thing too. It's like a very group. Yeah, I don't I'm like I'm like I'm good. I just I'll read a book and I'm just like, I'm just gonna go home now. I don't even know what is it? Is it what is the quarter halfs or what how they're they divided how long are they Oh, lord. It could be an hour this is a bonus that people are getting from this episode to not only are they understanding the benefits of color of melody development, lyrical development and core development, how they all intertwine and work perfectly but my total Levine you know, just being completely like clueless and I'm like, is there a long hard slog now and yeah yeah,

this was fire. This was fire. This was so so, so good. The link in the bio we're going to have to and in the description will be to book a song critique. So if you're someone that's like, listen, I just want to dip my toe in understanding maybe an area that needs to develop because we all do, but you're new to this. Just click the button, get us on critique, and have your mind blown. And also to realize that it wasn't that bad. That the process that in our heads, we think it's like, you know, the person is going to come and be like, ogre Shang, we're going to have to blow it up. This is the worst thing ever. I want you to unmute yourself on Zoom, because I'm just going to talk the entire time and tell you how to it's none of that. It's it's starting to understand so Okay, what did you want to do with the song The intention is Oh, that's interested. Well, here's my thought of what needs to happen. What do you think about that? Oh, it ends up being more conversational to which I was really love. So, Matt, Madeline you're awesome. Amazing episode.