Episode 104: Behind the Process

Doing something new can be scary, it’s why most people stay in their comfort zones.

Mike and guest Seth Schaeffer from Behind the Act talk mindset, advancing towards goals, starting new ventures and the difference in navigating the process or running away from it.

In this episode, they tackle the fear of the unknown, the importance of seeking help, and the power of leaning into your strengths. They discuss the journey from perfectionism to unintentional growth, and the art of juggling different passions and talents.

Pro songwriters have a process but what's it like before then? Mike and Seth share their insights and lessons learned.

Find Seth at https://www.youtube.com/@behindtheact

Transcript:

Hey, I'm Mike Myers and this is the song rank for guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career. You love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Hello, my friends Mike Myers here with the songwriting for guitar Podcast, episode 104. Behind the process with Seth Schafer. Now like a few weeks ago, I was on SAS podcast behind the act. And it was really it was fun to actually do a podcast in person. He's not that far from me. We both live in Nashville and ironically, we moved to Nashville at the same time. So it was it was really awesome to meet up with somebody who was experiencing that transition as well. It gorgeous studio and amazing series of my first impression was I was like, Dude, your studio rocks, it's, it's everything is so ready to just jump in and record whether you're doing drums, bass, I we kind of geeked out together. And it was interesting to hear that he was starting a podcast from scratch. And he was starting this, this music licensing journey from scratch starting at the very beginning. And to me to be willing to make mistakes and learn, especially both processes. It's It's crazy because it is a handful doing a podcast, and diving into music licensing, but it was really cool to hear sess perspective and his willingness to be open about the process. So here we go, Episode 104, behind the process with Seth Schaffer.

Dude, I was on your podcast. So naturally, I have to have you on my podcast to talk about. And there's so many different angles that we could approach this and I was thinking about it. But then I realized just when we had our introduction, you were like, Hey, I moved to Nashville. I'm just starting this podcast. Also, I'm getting into like, you know, music licensing. And I just built a studio. And I'm thinking and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So you're just, there's so many starts, that you're just now getting into which one start alone can be like, Oh, shit, oh, shit, like, so overwhelming. But like, several. That's crazy. But you seem to be, I don't know, approaching this to with a level of curiosity and a level of Oh, no, no, I do not know. But that's what's fascinating. I don't know. Here we go. And I'm like, let's talk about that. Because that is a particular type of person that's willing to put themselves not just once in one thing, but several things in the beginning of them. Right?

Yeah, I know, the process for me is it's looking at every new step, trying to I guess, I'm trying to discover what it is that I'm not good at, and what what can be better. So like, there's certain things that I'm hitting a mark that I feel is technically acceptable, but it's not to the level that I want it to be. And so allowing myself to grow in places that there's no reason functionally that I should be good at until I really challenge myself and grow. And then also realize that other people around me are really good at these things. And so I don't have fear and just saying, I don't know, and asking people for help, because they already know and I don't, so why not ask, right. Buthere, here's where I would say, what's interesting is you it's almost like, you've accepted, like, hey, there are people that really know a lot more about this, and I'm just gonna go I'm gonna, I'm gonna be with them. Wonderful for some people that takes years to get to that, that position to just say, Can you help me? And what you see is a backlog of struggling trying to piece together. And that's where they have this mis mismatch of like, they've got half of steps 37, but they have step two, but then you have step four, and they have stuff, and it's just not working, and they're frustrated. And it seems like you've already come to the solution. To prevent all that I'm just going to start saying like, Hey, can you help me?

Right? Yeah, I think that we attach certain skills that we, you know, to the value that we think that we bring to the world. So there are you know, if you are great at public speaking well you have a lot of pride in that. So you kind of almost protect yourself from trying to learn because that's that's where I carry value. So if I look weak in that, I'm not going to be able to do it. And so, for me growing up playing piano was the thing that I was really, you know, I had Excel that year according to the community that I was around. And so it became scary to me when I was like, I need to do music. Okay, I need to record it. And so, in my head music is just music. So if you are recording it, I'm attaching like, I'm supposed to be good at recording, because I know how to play piano. Well, that's that. There's no reason that that that's not true at all. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's just like, if you're a if you're if you're good at it, you know, playing in a recording studio, you might not be great live, or vice versa, or whatever the things are. So I've gone through this process of trying to break down and disconnect dissociate each parts part of the skill into something that I can then go grow and be okay to not be good at it. Like I don't need to be good at it, I need to grow in it. I want to get better than I am right now.

Have you always kept this very, like, you've just immediately stepped into the realm of just like, Yeah, this is how you're gonna get better. Is this just transformation over time? You've come to this cathartic, it feels like a very cathartic moment. Where for again, not that I'm saying that everyone does this. But a good chunk of people have this resistance, again, against asking and helping and just trying to piece a system, which essentially doesn't work. And that's where they drop off. Yeah,

I feel like it's often it's a fear of failure. Right, like, and so what, why are you afraid to fail? If you're starting up a new skill that you literally have no experience with? There's no reason you're going to be good at it. I mean, maybe if you just happened to be lucky, and you can just speak a new language, for example, like, you're not going to know. So you start, you just have to start and so disconnecting even pieces of that, I think are the big example. I'm not a big sports person. So I apologize about the analogy. I'm not if you're really Yeah, no, no, no. But if you're, if you're a good pitcher, you're still probably not going to be great at being the catcher, right? So whatever. So like you need, you need to be able to like, dissociate, where your pride is at and say, Okay, I have an opportunity to grow here. And me being good at it doesn't make me feel any better, especially when I know that I'm just lying to myself about it.

But it's amazing that sometimes we'd love to live in that life for a little bit, because we're just like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's like, No, you're you're not good at it. Because why would you be good at it? This is a brand new thing that you're just picking up? Oh, how does that make sense that you would be amazing at it? Oh, it's because you think the skill that you built like, yeah, you're pretty decent at playing your open mic, or you've been great at writing some of these songs. But now you need to write this type of song. Why do you think that carries over in this? It doesn't? You're starting at the ground floor like everyone else, right? Like, and maybe that's the scary bit is because, oh, it's the ground floor. Again, you're saying like, I'm gonna have to put in this work. And I may have to, like, not do well, and I'll have to read a whole bunch. And that means because we're so we're in love with the result, which, you know, people think, Oh, don't get me, you know, sometimes higher status, more money, but we're not in love with the process of the whole the whole thing, which you got to love the process.

Right? And, and obviously, ladies that, you know, you're always learning something new. I learned that this was a problem for me when I well, did you know, some therapy work and trying to understand why I was struggling with music? And was I afraid of winning at music or what was what was the issue. And I realized that I owned a recording studio with a friend when I was younger, and was not good at it, but did my you know, did my best or whatever. And then I accidentally built a film company, which felt effortless, quote, unquote, because I wasn't supposed to be good at film. So I it was easy for me to kind of grow those skills and just keep failing and keep failing. And over time I got competent at you know, holding a camera and hitting the red button. But as I started move, you know, reengaging into the music side, which has this this fear baked into my brain from childhood. It was like okay, yeah, disconnect the pieces of the puzzle that I'm not good at. So if I'm afraid at X, Y or Z, just Yeah, take it one piece at a time and I have a tendency also to hyper focus on one thing at a time. And so I don't, I don't try to become good at mixing at the same time as writing lyrics at the same time as practicing my parody battles, my drums kidding. But yeah, I mean, but truly like, like I want one technique at a time to to try to, quote unquote conquer enough that I feel like I took a step forward.

Because each step needs that focus, you can't do. Yeah, you can't get better at multiple scales at multiple at the same time because like, one is going to not get like one will get better, the other one kind of gets better and the other one doesn't. But also to from an energy level, it's not sustainable. That's one thing where you'll totally burn yourself out. And you'll get like, I hate music. It's so exhausting. It's so well, yeah, if you try and do everything at once, it is pretty exhausting. Ithink what you mentioned, you know, during the interview we did last time, the idea that you spend 15 minutes a day on one part of the skill at a time is how you grow, not just play for 15 minutes. It's like work on something for 15 minutes, and then play. AndI think that's the thing too, that the book that I remember when I mentioned you were like, oh, yeah, read that grit. I'm like, oh, yeah, she really dives in to being okay with not being great at the thing at actually struggling at the beginning. And actually being judged as like, Oh, you're probably not going to do well with it. But in turn, that person keeps on trying and progressing and learning from others applying. And it gets better. And maybe just it has some form. But man, it develops more and more and more and more as opposed to those that are gifted, where they, they they excel, but then they plateau because they have no framework for getting better. And so they kind of look around, they go like I'm gonna they're looking for validation. They're looking for people to be like, Hey, I'm still getting thing. They're like, yeah, it's been a couple of years. You're kind of the same. I guess you're okay. Yeah.

I remember that. When I was filmmaking. I shared a video with somebody and they were like, That's amazing. That's great. And then I shared another one with the same tricks. And they were like, okay, yeah, you can still do that thing you did. That's great. Like, what's next? And I was like, okay, cool. This is where I'm looking for a dopamine hit for validation instead of actual growth. And that hit me and I was like, okay, just keep growing and getting better take one step at a time.And it's nice to get the validation. But what I find is the people that do well over time, they're like, Okay, cool. Thank you. Like they still enjoyed like, cool. I'm glad you appreciate it. But they're also like, so what would you do differently? They're much more interested in understanding the nuances of how they can get better. And I mean, with podcasting, and with licensing and recording, there's so many different nuances, and so many different techniques that you can learn from people that are doing it well, that you can filter in, but you won't filter them in unless you ask and be okay with them giving an answer.I also have struggled with overthinking a lot. struggles may be the wrong word. I am an over thinker, I'm an over analyzer, I think about everything I plan, like crazy. And so a lot of the deep dives that I do, it's that whole, you know, paralysis by analysis thing, right? Where I'm, I mean, my podcast launched, you know, a solid eight months after I started it, you know, because I was like, Okay, well, how do I like how do I edit? How do I pose? What was the intro DDP? What are all the you know, like, all the pieces and, you know, everybody's like, just start. I'm like, I know, but you have too much to figure out so that once I launch I, I'm at least comfortable with that. But I also I think, this is important for me is, I have to know that I've launched it to the best of my ability within reason with totally tolerating the imperfections. So the things that I know I could make better technically, I need to be okay with to a degree. So like, I want to hit a bar, and I want to go above that bar. But I also need to know that I can just let it go. Like it has little glitches here. The colors not matching the things I know from the filmmaking standpoint, like, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't because I was like, we could sum up what you just said right there into this sentence. Hey, I just launched a podcast and I'm into the first 10 episodes, because if somebody gets that, they're like, oh, okay, you're just starting out. If you had said, I've been I'm in Episode 200 of my podcast. Cool, then the it's almost like the measurement to of how we like other People would look into it and suggest is going to be different. So why don't we adopt that too, but we don't because he says, like analysis, paralysis by analysis. I think there's many songwriters and I've met many songwriters that are basically crippled by over studying and writing down, they've taken this course they've taken this course they've taken this course they've taken this course. But the problem is they've never applied a single element of what they've learned into writing a song. And it breaks my brain. Yeah, it just like it shuts down. Because I'm like, how do you think you're going to, like flipping through your notebook and writing more notes and going back through is not going to help? What's gonna help is writing 200 songs based off of what you've learned. And it seems like, you're now in the space where it's a little bit less, and you know, kind of like analysis analysis, but it's like, cool, I need to do it. Because when you start doing it, you're committing yourself to continually doing it. And maybe that's where people don't want to jump in, because then suddenly, it's now a commitment.

I also think once you if you have a goal or a dream that you're, you know, a skill you're wanting to acquire, and you so badly want to win at that. And you again, you're just starting off. And so you release your first song to somebody and they're like, that's really great. Well, you start to like pile on this fear of failure. Again, I think like, as you start to get affirmation consistently, you're more afraid of getting the things that break down that reality. Because you know, how you're more aware of how good you are? Not the better that you get at something. Yeah, yeah, too. So I feel like there's a breakdown that happens as you start to get more information for stuff. What'sfascinating about that is sometimes we're also aware of who we're bringing the thing to, and the answer, they're gonna give, like, we're giving it to a person that we just know, like, I can't my mom's just gonna be like, yeah, it was great. And I'll be like, Oh, that's, that's, that's all I needed to hear. Yeah, yeah. But if you go to a mentor, they're gonna be like, Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that's not that, here's what I would do next time. But I really like how this is happening here.

I have hunger for those people in my life that say, This is what I would make better. I like even the people, I know that they like it. They don't like they don't they know that they don't even need to say that with me. They're like, let's just, that's fine. Cool. That's great. Here's here are the things that sucked. But it's like refreshing as heck, to me for some reason. Like, cool, I can start to apply that later.

That's the keys to like the next thing. And I think what people, yeah, either you're hungry for the praise, or you're hungry for the development. And that's kind of like it. And it's like, if you're hungry for the praise. That's why people, you know, go to the same open mic for 20 years, where everybody plays the same style song again, and again, and again, and nothing's changed. And that's all just a clap of like, that was great. There's a point where that's good for us at the start, because it needs to get us you know, just kind of motivated to get going. But eventually, that does nothing for us in the long term. I was telling you that yesterday, the book club that I'm in it's a book called 10x is easier than to x. And somebody expressed, you know, man, this is really tough. And he goes, uncertainty is the price of admission for the next level. And I was just like, I was like, oh, man, that's that's some good shit. Like, there we go. Uncertainty is the price of mission and it seems like when you're okay with that, you're well you're okay with like, let tell me all these all these things that need to change. I'm curious because you were really easy. You know, piano was the intro. That was the thing for music and you started a recording studio, but you know, it didn't work. I tried my best with the knowledge you had. When did you come to that position of like, cool. Not only and I feel this is really important for people that haven't been to your studio, which is, you know, not everyone has, not only have you made the verbal commitment, but when I walked in your studio,I was like, Oh, damn, damn, okay. You're committed to like, it was just like, things were set up, acquit. And I was like, Oh, that's nice. I was like, okay, yeah. All right. You know what I've been thinking about allowing this meter I don't have allowed me like I was looking around. You've not just talked the talk, but you've invested wisely in kind of like your setups and your things and you were telling me about like the people that you've had over your mentors to like, advise you on the next step. Next step. Oh, this I'm getting some mixing help on this. So it seems like it's not just talk. How did it get there?

I don't know. I mean, for For me, the space in particular, because I had had a studio before I wanted this one to be so capable that I know I'm the problem all the time. So, so if if the studio is great, and there's, I don't have excuses for gear, and for mics and for whatever, for the sound quality to not be good, I know for sure. I know for sure that I'm the problem.What's fascinating to me with this, the studio that you built, it's gorgeous. It has, you know, everything is like ready to go. Like if you had people you can be here, here, here, it's set to go set to go set to go to meet, how did you get to that jump of uncertainty, built in fears about music, and then suddenly now being the point where it's like, cool, I'm fully committed, how did you get from that chasm that jump from uncertainty and like, it wasn't a thing for quite a while. And I feel for people that eventually jump back into music. That's the story. There was this period of like, music didn't happen, it was completely other thing. And I did this, and it was pretty good. But like, now I'm here, because I want to be have that happen.From my end, there was definitely a massive driver of frustration coming from feeling like that filmmaking stuff that I had done, and still do, and I love it. But the filmmaking side had taken what I had originally started as a recording studio, and a lot, candidly, because it was easier to make money in film than it was running a recording studio, at least in the town that I was at, and with the skills that I had, right. And so I kind of fell into that and was like, Man, I still need and want to do music. I'm constantly sitting down and writing and I need to get stuff out. But I also have this fear of the judgment that I have for myself that I'm perceiving from other people, what'sthe judgment? Or what did you perceive in your head when you thought about that, like,oh, that, that I released something, and it's lame. You know, like the very childhood versions of bullies making fun of you and me making fun of me, or, I mean, really, some simple quote unquote, stuff, like, I know, I want to record something. And I try really, really hard. And I've got my speaker set up in a room that's not treated, and I don't have any correction going on. And so the mix just always sounds bad. And I didn't know anything about gain staging. Not that you need to I mean, I'm not trying to pitch anything about that side of it. But I, I didn't know what I was doing wrong. And I was trying my best and I kept hitting fail points. I was like, Man, this is so annoying. And I yeah, it's just been a, it's been a push. I mean, I've spent really two years in this space learning and growing one step at a time that turned into the studio that you're, you saw that is is now capable for executing music. Well, I'm not saying I am, but I'm getting there.

I think you're getting there, man, because I heard some stuff. And I'm just like, there's certain things that I was like, Oh, I could hear this. This is where I would change. But what's even more fascinating is you have to let go of something. So you were taking something that was working well. And you allowed it to stop it like you know, you moved you move from your state and that to do a move I know is like it's it's difficult to make a state jump to a whole new place a whole new thing. I think it's funny that we both like arrived around the same time. But knowing like I have to do this knowing and doing our like, you know, two different things.Oh, yeah. Well, and my wife and my family are also courageous and open. So that was helpful to know. I mean, it takes a lot of buy in for us to all say, Yeah, let's go reinvent life for a second in a different way. Yeah, it's exciting, though. You know, I mean, it's easy to look back. You know, I don't want to point negative negatively to other people. But if, you know, you look back and you're like, Man, the last five years, I've been doing this thing and I feel stuck, like Yeah, who put me in this position? Like I did. So I'm the one that needs to pull myself out of it. Yeah, no one else is gonna do it like, and the position wasn't bad. It just wasn't what I wanted things to be.

I think that's the important thing right there. Because when we think of awful things, we think of just like, This is terrible. Like, the walls are caving in and it's awful. It's it's I've lost my think, but what you're describing is, oh, it was the thing that was going well, but it just didn't make me happy. Yeah. And I think people everywhere Eddie has that in a sense, there are points where there's things that we feel that we have to do that we love to do. But we don't, because we've been doing this other thing for a while. And it's very safe. And it's it's kind of what we know, even if I don't love it at this point, I understand the ins and outs of it. I know when things go wrong, what needs to be fixed, and but at some point, you kind of have a make decision. Are you okay with that? Like, if this is the end all be all, like, is this what you want?

Right? Yeah. And I think that there's also an important thing to communicate. I mean, in my opinion, to people that, like, sometimes you have to do those things you don't want to do. And there's no, there's nothing ethically wrong with obviously, working a job and paying the bills and doing the things. So it's a matter of engaging with something on the side that you can grow. Like, for example, my podcast is new, like there's, you know, there's no way that's going to be even close to paying bills, you know, for maybe ever or for, you know, like, that's not that's not the point, but it's on this, it's on the side, it's something that, you know, from a mechanic's standpoint, there's reasons and good, you know, purpose for it, but the, you know, sharing good ideas with the world and being there. But there's different steps along the way, what you're describing is, there's different steps when you're starting out, yeah, it's not going to be a full time thing, it's not going to be it's like, you're going to be doing this while developing this, you're going to be I feel like there's many different transition points, where you can slowly let go of this thing. And then you can upgrade to the next level. But there's a period of time where these two have to kind of share a dance with each other. Yeah, and you're not able to do it fully. But there is some time you're able to carve out and develop it and get better at it and learn from others and apply that knowledge. And then if you do that for a while, it's almost like you can cut back the other thing that you're not crazy about. But it's like you realize, right now that's where it is. But it's not how it's going to be forever, right? Is that a long term vision plan. This is what it's going to look like long term in the short term, it may be like this. And so it doesn't bother if others don't see it, or if they don't get it. And it's not my job to make them see it. What it is my job is to make sure that I'm putting in the work, the effort, the things that I know that move the needle in the direction that I want. And if everybody chooses to look at me, that's their wasted time. And if I'm there their thought, yeah, it just seems like that you're very just kind of like, alright, let's let's get on this path. Like it seems like a very long term thing, which I can relate to because I'm short term moves.I'm like, Okay, that's cool. But what's what what does this mean in the bigger picture of things like five years from now, what is this going to look like? Yeah.songwriters, let's get real for a moment. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. We're looking at the song various different ways we're looking at here there. I'm not sure if we are in our own head, and we could dissect it and, and rework it and rework it and rework and rework until you suck the life out of your idea. You know, it's a lot easier, getting an outside perspective, especially when that outside perspective is someone that has had success with music. And that's why getting a song critique is invaluable, so that you don't have to wonder and look at your song again and again and again. But somebody can look in on your process, advise and actually make you aware of potential hurdles you might face if you keep on going down this path, but instead do this. Why because mentors have been in the same place that you are in right now. So instead of wasting hours upon hours of you know, stressing yourself out, going crazy looking at the same song, the same lyric sheet, the same melody you keep on singing the same chord structure. Instead, sign up for a song critique at songwriting for guitar.com Book it with one of our coaches so that you can then actually finish the song, get something out of it and move on to the next song with a process and a system. So go to songwriting for guitar.com right now to book your song critique. Okay, let's jump back into the episode Yeah, I have a question for you too. But But I guess I want to start with a little quick story when I had the film company with a team of people that They were asking me what the vision of the company was they would reference Elon Musk. And he's like, Well, Elon Musk just wants to make people you know, the world, or the human race. multiplanetary. Like, okay, so every decision that he makes, it seems like he's running all of these different companies for all kinds of things. But like, he has an ultimate goal, that is vision, my ultimate goal that's guiding me on all these little decisions is that I want to create music that people will be able to enjoy, and that can be useful for movies and commercial stuff, and just enjoy it on Spotify. That's my ultimate vision. So every decision I'm making is leading up towards that sharing good ideas in the music side, right. You know, from the outside, it could appear that I mean, obviously, you have a consistent name, but that you have a lot of like, too many directions, I don't think give too many directions. But clearly, you have a vision of what you're trying to do. And what what is that?Well, here's what before I answer, this is what's great when a Hustla allow me to dodge that question. And then go deeper into your question. When you like, That, to me shows the scope of how you can you know, people can build things with sometimes like, oh, wow, it built because what you're describing yet staff to in, in film, which is crazy, like so it was it was doing well.Yeah. I think when we were at our most on staff, we had 14 people full time that we were in Denver, and in Grand Junction, and we were going all over the country filming doing that's amazing. So I but I woke up and realized was like, that's not what I am happy with. And I mean, small businesses hard. And so the stress that comes along with like, yeah, having payroll, and all of those things that, you know, come and go really quickly. It it broke me down. And I was like I am burnt out, just absolutely burnt out. And for something that wasn't my ultimate dream or goal that and that's the thing I was saying. It's like I woke up and realized, like, I'm the one that got me here. So like, I have to get out of it.

What's great about that, I don't know if you ever had this perspective, when you came to that realization, you know, film, it was a love that you discover, but it's also sound like something that developed and built. It feels like sometimes to like accident, like it was just like, oh, okay, let's do this, skip this. And it was crazy. As if you could scale that. Imagine a thing that you're insanely passionate excited about? Yep, that's what I'm like, accidental growth, scaling. Unintentional, like, Oh, that's cool. I'm like, oh, man, imagine like the focus of like, taking that energy that you did. That fights to me any sort of like, I'm not sure, any sort of hesitancy because it's like, Hey, if you unintentionally scaled and built this thing, that's amazing. Imagine with an intention, and passion in development and skill, like what it can be. That boggles mymind. Yeah. And I'm really, really, really, truly excited. It just took me breaking down the reasons that I didn't do that first, outside of the confusion of how to make it make money and pay the bills. Like it was like there was something else. And like that, we talked about that earlier. But it was the fear it was the the fear of failure. And the fact that my identity from the time I was two was a piano player, like that is people pointed to me and said, Look, he's good at playing piano here. Monkey go play the piano, so that everybody claps their hands at the end, because you're a little kid, and then I got older, and it was the same version. And it's been my whole life, my identities attached to it. I was like, Man, I am not going to be successful at producing songs, or recording songs, if I keep being afraid of the judgement, because I'm not as good at those things as I am, or was at the skills of playing piano from, you know, we're talking about like, childhood trauma stuff here. But Well, it'sinteresting to me again, that was the thing that was music, there was an identity given and with that you played people clapped, it was awesome. And then then you get into the intricate, like, I'm gonna build a studio, I'm gonna build career. And it's just like, it's, it's not easy to clap, because there's so many nuances that people don't understand. You can try to explain but then they don't get Yeah. And then you start to actually see oh, this is actually how it works. Oh, I had some preconceived notions of how music happened. Oh, I need to understand. No, I don't understand publishing. No, I don't understand. I do understand song structure, but I don't know how to make this always. Oh, all these little facets. you're discovering and yeah, it's hard to describe it to someone. Because sometimes you do if you do describe it, they're kind of like sounds like a lot of work. Yeah,yes, yeah. Yep, I mean, and that's where the benefit comes, though. You know, it's like anytime you work hard at something you're growing that that long term dopamine that you get from it, do you go conquer a hard skill? Like that's the good dopamine that like swiping on social media is the cheap, fast more, you know, oh yeah, potent at the moment, but it just goes away and dumps, right like, but the hard work stuff is like, I always feel so much better. Obviously, everyone does. Like after you work hard at something, especially something that you've had as a goal, or you realize you need to do, Ijust want to appreciate that you said dumps and I just imagined Instagram just taking a big old dump in our soul just crushing it. And it's just, it's just stay in there every single time. But I will not avoid the question you asked me, What's my vision, and it's true people can look at, you know, all these little facets of like, oh, Mike does a podcast and he has company. And he does some licensing. And I always see them as two separate entities, because to me, there's the education side, which is purely just educating songwriters, that are in different positions in life, that desire to move forward at a higher level. And so that means also connecting them with people that I've been lucky to be mentored by, and collaborate with, that are doing it at a level that's sustainable. And it's a career, and it's the thing they do to pay bills. And that's to me exciting, because they don't know their names. And that demystifies that you have to know that they've done some cool shit. And it's awesome. It's great. But you can still do it. And so creating that community. That to me is the exciting thing was songwriting for guitar. On the other side, I just love writing and composing and creating, and getting into more and more television shows. Because at first it was, oh, this is interesting, then it became very intentional. And now it's grown to a level of like, wow, it's crazy. Five years ago, I wouldn't feel confident with this, this, this this. Now, it's just like, I'm like, Cool. I'll do that. So it's looking for that next as what we're talking about right now, higher levels, where it's like, guy, I want to six figure like placement. That'd be great. Yeah, that sounds great. That's, that's a high level, that's so high. But it's like cool, you've done the quick $100, you've done the four figure you've done the five figure, you have not had that level. And that might take three years, four years. Cool, that's fine. But man, when it happens, not so much about the money, the money is the bonus. But the other thing is like, it's probably going to be with a collaborator, which is going to be exciting, because it's also someone I get to share it with. But it's also just again, mythbusting that you need to do this, this and this and music. So those are the things that power me to carry out the vision of both sides. But then also meeting people that are also hungry to do that. And then my network and my community grows, my circle grows of people that are very insanely driven, passionate, they look after others, but they're constantly bettering themselves. And they can tell me five books that you need to read. And, oh, here's a nugget of like, things that I can write down. I'm like, Oh, wow, that's, I need to do that. It's inspiring. I don't consider it overwhelming. But it's like, oh, they're really gonna, I guess, step up my game a little bit, because it's just like the they push you in a good way to be a better and a higher level.Yeah, no, I think that that community drive that you've put together, it feels like it feeds the same ultimate goal regardless, and obviously, you're doing all of the things you're doing. But like having a podcast, having courses, having a book, it all still feeds, like you say directly into the goal of having a songwriter like being able to do songwriting, engage the music industry and help other people. Like that's the thing. What else should life be really? I mean, whatexactly what should it be if you've been able to get to a level where it's now sustainable? And it you found find it shocking and you think, man, if I could go back to five years ago, Mike or six years ago, Mike, what I would probably tell myself this, this, this and this and that sounds like you're creating like a program or basically a curriculum, you should probably create something that informed people on this, this and this. It's not a fast track, but it's almost like you're giving them the blueprint that you used to help get to where you are, and if they use that blueprint adjusted to them put in the work. Yeah, it it will work out. That's that's the fun thing. And that's what I find interesting with where you're at, like you embracing just the blueprint and embrace Seeing like, the foundational elements and staying there being willing to and talk about it, because I feel like when people talk about what they're working on, they try to make it fluffy or try to make it more, you know, kind of like, well, I'm working on and they try to add a level of mystique or just like pomp and circumstance, where you're just like, Yeah, I'm working on this thing, because man I listened to and it was just like, it was not what I wanted at all. And I'm like, wow, the transparency in that phrase is awesome. Because you truly are allowing yourself to stay there. But be okay with it, instead of trying to hide under this language, or these nuances or make excuses. Like, and I feel like that's the other half I get. Oh, I was crazy week. Yeah, I still have crazy weeks, crazy weeks are not going to disappear. Crazy weeks are going to be consistent. So always, if you're using that as the quick getaway car, in everything that you're doing at the beginning, I don't think you're gonna make it. Yeah,

no, I I'm unrelenting on on each skill that I find important that I need to learn. And I'll spend an unnecessary amount of time while not unnecessary, I spent the necessary amount of time to figure out what it is that I haven't figured out and I get frustrated if I don't understand it. Like we were talking about the music industry stuff was like, Why in the world? Is this so complex? And why do I feel like I'm an idiot? Because it doesn't make sense to me. And the idea of just sign up for this account and call it good. I'm like, that doesn't. I mean, okay, that works, I'm sure. But I want to understand.Like, you're doing the exact balance of what it needs to be. It requires Yes. As you're growing gear to do the thing you do, but the one thing you're not doing is just, I feel this is the the terrible thing about gear, you can buy a new thing and feel like you've reached a new level. And it can look great on Instagram posts, it can look great on Facebook posts. And it's like, Well, can I hear what you're doing? Oh, you want? You want to hear it? Well, yeah, you have that new XYZ. Can I hear what you're working on? Oh, well, things have been crazy. So I just have this piece of gear. That's like 2000. Just say I'm like, okay, yeah, cool. Um, yeah,I mean, to be fair, that's been me, like, for two years, like, right? And that's awesome. I'm okay with that. Like, it's been me for two years, sitting in the studio not having stuff out on Spotify, still to this day. But I will in give me a month, okay. Butwhat I will say is your, what you're doing differently is you've been developing it and getting feedback. That's the other thing. Sometimes people will sit in that space of just the gear, and not doing the thing and not getting the feedback because they're just I know, it's not going to be good. And I've been really clinging to this camper. I've been clinging to this hardware compressor that, like I see everybody and I got all the FabFilter gear, and I bought all and I got ISIS and it's like, cool. Those are all great companies. Yep. But those companies are absolutely pointless. If you haven't written a couple, you know, 100 or so songs to like, just get the gears moving, and getting the feedback on what needs changed and just starting to implement those tools to discover like, oh, geez, I just That's a terrible sound cool. Now, you know, don't use it, use another one, right? Trust your ear start to learn. Well, why don't and to me, that's the other question. It's always interesting. Well, why don't why isn't it good? Well, it's really fuzzy. Okay, so make it less. Oh, what she said gain staging. Or it's like, oh, it's just really I, for me, this was a problem with recording guitars like, that sounds so thin. Well, how many guitars Do you have one? That's why is one, it can only do one thing. So if you take the highs out of it, it'll just be nothing but lows, but I need some highs, okay, well, but I want the low, well, then you're gonna have to track multiple guitars, that means you're gonna have to get good at tracking, you're gonna have to get good at knowing different parts to play to layer on top of each other. So they're all not facing each other. It's a whole and then it's like, oh, then there's more to this. And you're just in that space where you are totally embracing that. Where others are quietly sitting on the sidelines. Waiting, I think I also want to acknowledge that I'm breaking every rule that I tell to other people when it comes to film. So when they say what do I need to buy, like what camera do I need and what lens do I need and all this stuff? I'm like, you don't need that. Like your phone is going to crash for you. Like true. Yeah, I use the phone all the time. I mean, I mean, I've got you know, nice camera sitting around out in the studio, and I do my intros on the phone because it's easier and it's more convenient. And because it's valuable, it is valid. So it's like the stuff I have in the studio, I guess that's the difference is that I, I'm aware that that piece of gear isn't gonna make me better. It's something that I want to add to my tool set to understand how to use but I don't think that that's going to make a song better. I think that's huge. And yeah, you can admit that. People ask me, you know, like, should I get a helix a camper? Which, which profile? Or should I get? And I'm like, Well, what do you have logic? Start with logic right there, because the concepts are the same. Just use a lot.Yep. I'm not going to call the guy out. But I talked with a guy who was all about, you know, having the tubes and the real everything, and you can only use these amazing pedals. And I had in the past created this guitar sound on that Mustang that yeah, and the end logic, and he was like, How in the world did you get this tone? And I was like, You do not want to? In the box, no plugins, logic. Yep. It just sounded great. Like,it's, it's exactly that because it's about the player the concepts, how the song is formed the part that you it's a whole host of other things that are totally not at all a piece of gear. But I think it's the one thing that we can hold and bind be like, Oh, I got the one because I saw the YouTube video and, and they used the the FabFilter EQ, and I'm gonna throw that on my vocal, even though the melody itself really isn't that good. But I am however, it's like, I'll get to its Instagram bowl, mixing a vocal right now. There we go. I'm going to post in, does nothing. And that's something I've been asked. I mean, I'm curious about from my own self, and we'd love to have your like, know your opinion on too. But I'll start it off with a statement. With the podcast stuff. I started cutting the shorts out of the long form stuff and realize that I was ending up. I mean, I had some great content that I'm excited to share that I you know, but I have had other clips that it was like, Yeah, that's fine. It's a post? And is it but am I posting to post for my posting to make the world a better place with better thought? And like, so I need to apply the same question to my music stuff, once I start attaching that to songs. And behind the scenes stuff is interesting to people. So that can be valuable, but like, I don't want to clutter my feed full of, it's fine. I'd like I did it because I'm supposed to social media eating is the verb, right? Like, but, you know, but instead, like, you know, how do you make sure that what you're sharing isn't just spamming for no good reason and giving people something valuable. Youdon't have to really worry about that. Because it's not spam. It's you sharing your point of view and actually building your audience and building your message. And you're also attracting the people that are like, Hey, this is I love that he shared this, like, I love that he showed what was happening behind the scenes, because, you know, it's just engaging to them. And it's part in speaking to them. Like friends, it's, you know, maybe this silly analogy. I follow Batman on Instagram. I'm sure Batman's not going to post all the things that I'm crazy about. But a good chunk of what Batman posts is pretty quality content where I'm like, Man, I love that episode of the animated series. That's so cool. All they posted that that was really cool. I'm not going to unfollow because I think we're at a place where it's if it's not engaging, guess what we can do? Swipe on. No, we can just swipe off because there's, there's 40 million. I like how you went to like the detrimental there that it's so bad there. He shared deeper, I'm going to unfollow her. And now it's just like, No, they can just swipe up because there's a boatload of other things below what Imeant by follow really on that is it like I don't follow the accounts. I don't want to follow, follow circley and not follow. I'm not forcing myself into somebody else's feed youaren't you they willfully click that. So it's just like, exactly, you can come on, it's all good. And you're gonna see what you get. And if you don't like it, okay, then that doesn't get a lot of likes. That's okay. Right? A lot of the things that I thought were like dumb, and I'm like, That's pretty stupid ends up doing well. And there are some times where I'm like, no one's gonna like that. And I'm like, I was right. No one. No one really cared about that. But that's the beauty of doing more and more because you discover that it's like songwriting. How do you know what constitutes a really catchy chorus? Well, you have to get feedback and start to discover these elements. And you have to do that a lot. Because then you'll discover how to consistently write things that have hooks that develop and that's what I think is exciting about that space that you're in right now. Because that's the that's the period of developing and learning all these things that will be beneficial, like five years from now 10 years from now 20 that are just built upon and develop to. It's like there is another stage, but it's just like it's the thing grows a little bit differently. And it's a new form, and there's a new addition to it a new way of looking at it. And, yeah, it's just an exciting time that you're in.I agree. Yeah, I'm, I'm thrilled. I'm excited. Something I was gonna say earlier, I guess, I realized that when I feel like I'm about to be defensive about something in response to somebody's feedback, it's like the thing I know, I need to go learn. Right? So the, so if you share a song, and somebody says, I think that you need to change this thing like that. And then I did that on purpose like this. It's like, wait a minute, hold on, hold on, start over, Seth.But I love that because I think I've experienced that where sometimes I know, I can feel that wall that someone's trying to put up like, I don't want to change it. I don't know if it's because they're hurt. Or they feel like, oh, that's work that I may have to put into it. I just wanted to move on and just be told that I could pass to the next level. But I have to develop this morning. It's like, yeah, you might have to. But that's an interesting takeaway. And I think there's lots of people are probably listening. They're like, oh, like, oh, moments of like, Oh, I think I had a moment like that. And that's okay. I think because we're human. That's, that's just the nature of growth in itself.And also, all feedback isn't correct, right. So you have to understand that, if you can't hear it, because you feel defensive, then it probably is carrying some truth that you're afraid of admitting, but you know, if you can at least acknowledge that that is an option, or that is a perception. And I've decided that that's not something I'm going to take as what advice is, you know, good also. Butnow, if somebody's listening to this, and they're like, listen, I like the idea of writing. I like the idea of all this. How do I start taking that first step? Because like, you're, you're, you're painting this picture, which sounds fun. And I would love to do this, but I just can't.Yeah, I mean, the cliche of just start is too complex. Right? Yeah, I mean, because if you if just starting was that easy, you would have done it already. So break it down to a step that allows for you to build upon. So in other words, if writing a song is hard, then write three notes, build, you know, build a chorus, if building a course is too hard. Try to make a course that only has three words that repeat, or, you know, like, yeah, you know, if you don't know how to play guitar well enough to like comfortably, just flow with whatever your musical ideas are, then pick two chords and go back and forth between them and find notes and realize that the win is getting to the next step. Right? I mean, yes, having written a song eventually. But in order to get to that stage, you have to, to win. I have an analogy around Rubik's cubes for that, because I've learned how to solve Rubik's cubes because it's only seven steps. And correct me if I've heard Yeah, people will comment if that's,that no, no. But the point is, is that as I was learning, the goal was to learn step one, and that was my win. Yeah, not solving the Rubik's Cube is getting step one done, and over and over and over and then go, Okay, now we'll get one and two done, and then wipe it clean and, and wanting to and then quit. And then, you know, obviously, you get where that's going. It's like, eventually, I can solve Rubik's Cube, but I couldn't just sit down and solve a Rubik's Cube.I think it's beautiful thing of what you're describing, right? There is, if somebody let's say, in the context of licensing, they write a song or two, or three or four, and doesn't get accepted by a library, or it's not the deal they wanted or it's not getting placement, they view that as Wow, that's, well, that's because you're viewing that as the last step. It's like, but can we take a look instead at these incremental things that you've gotten better at that you're totally missing? And if you're not aware of this, now, your whole perception of this process is going to be colored, and you're going to miss out on all these huge growth moments.Yeah, and I think we talked about that as well like that. If you're defining a destination as where you're happy, you will be perpetually unhappy because you're, you're not going to be in that destination ever. So it's learning how to fall in love with the process that allows for us to find a version of happiness more often. Obviously, the happiness is a complex idea. But the the the benefit of showing up all the time and gaining one little step at a time is like it moves you forward. You're heading somewhere but you You, but You, but but by by taking a step forward, you know, you've at least gotten that much closer with something else every time. little piece at a time.said this was awesome. Now if people are like, Where can I find your podcast? Where can I go? Where can they go?It's a behind the act on YouTube, Spotify Apple everywhere.We'll include a link in our description. But Seth, this was awesome. So glad that you could join me.Thank you so much for yeah, thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it and that does it for this week's episode. It was edited and produced by Chris Mathias. I'm Mike Myers. Thanks for listening.