Episode 105 - Putting in the Work Part I
Mar 13, 2024The finished product always sounds so flawless, so obvious, so easy, but behind the scenes of that creative project is blood, sweat and tears aka, process and development over months and years.
In today’s dynamic episode coach Josh Doyle returns to chat with Mike Meiers on the importance of putting in the work. As we learn the craft of production or songwriting, it’s easy to gloss over the details or plain ignore them but it's in paying attention to the minutiae that will separate you from the rest.
The problem with quick solutions is that you’re competing with artists and talent from all over the world putting in the work and doing the difficult things. So it's time to ask yourself what does putting in the work look like and how can you keep improving your process?
Visit songwritingforguitar.com for more career changing tips and songwriting resources.
Hey, I'm Mike Myers. And this is the songwriting for guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career that you love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.
Hey, friends, Mike Myers here with the song rank for guitar podcast episode 105. putting in the work. Now listen, the finished product always sounds super flawless. It's It's so obvious, so easy. But behind the scenes, here's the thing, you do not see the work that goes into it, you don't see the blood, the sweat, the tears, the frickin process that's been developed over months, refined over years. And that's why in this two part series, I got my friend, mentor and songwriting for guitar coach, Josh Doyle, him and I talk about this all the time. And here's the reason why we're doing this because quick solutions never work and are never sustainable. When you're competing with artists and talent from all over the world, people who are putting in the work and doing the difficult things, it's really hard to stand out. So it's time to ask yourself, What does putting in the work look like? And how can you keep improving your process. That's what this two part series is all about. So here we go. Hold on your butts, we're jumping in to Episode 105. Part one of putting in the work
this first half, we can talk about putting in the work because it is a necessary component, regardless of being a lyricist, artist, producer, whether you're going after, you know, like a publishing deal, if you want to do licensing, you need to put in the work. But that feels vague. Sometimes when you say like, you know, put in the work, people go like, what does that mean? Put in the work? Yeah,
the very first thing that comes to mind for me is there's a quote from a drum teacher that I love named Mike Johnston. And he says, instead of practice makes perfect. His his phrase is practice makes permanent. And I just love that. Because if you're practicing the wrong thing, you're gonna be practicing, you're gonna feel like you're putting in the work, but you're just making permanent, the wrong thing, the wrong technique. You know, I mean, and then that's that whole thing of like having to undo all that learning that people talked about when they went down the wrong path or weren't, weren't ready, you know.
Now, what's interesting is you just flip that on its head for me, because I'm like, putting in the work to is sometimes also undoing some of the wrong things that you've doing consistently, and they become habit. And now you've got to undo it, it's like you ever tie a shoe really too tight, and then you have to undo it. And it's like, it's taking you way too long. And you're like, This is taking me way too long. And it's just like, I think I've made a mistake, I need to that's what makes me think about what you're talking about. It's just like, it is a kink in the chain that needs addressing, and you've got to fix it. Because if you don't, you won't be able to function. Like you have to fix this.
It'll be it'll feel more difficult than what it needs to right. Yeah, I mean, even just that, that tying your shoe to too tight, like if you're, if you're doing that, and then trying to run a marathon, the whole thing is gonna feel like a little bit off, and you're gonna be feeling like you're working harder. It just doesn't feel natural. And that's, that's really like, what we want to get to is everything just feels like you're in a flow like it's natural,
right there the flow, because at the other end of that flow is the results that you want, I think the results that we desire. But to get there to that flow state where it seems like when you watch somebody and there's ease, their ease, there's ease and how they write, there's ease and how they have productions. But what you may not see is there, they still have those hurdles, because they're at a new level, and those hurdles are still happening. There's just new standards, new things, but to the point where they are now, there's a whole lot of work that needed to happen. And I'm always fascinated when not everyone, but some try to bypass the work and try to go around and find the easy ways. But they end up being more difficult.
There's lots of ways to deceive yourself, I think because like you see somebody like that and you're like, Oh, I see. I see Mike and Josh working and I hear the results that they're getting and then Make it look so easy. And then so they're like, oh, this should be easy. And they, they just sit in this place of like, oh, I can write this three chord song. And that's easy for me. So maybe I'm doing it, it's I'm doing it easy, like how I see. Yes, other people making it look at, you know what I'm sayin. And they don't realize exactly what you were just saying that there's a lot of work that goes in on the back end to make it look that easy. I hear actors talk about this all the time that everybody thinks being an actor is really easy. They make it look like so much fun on on screen, but you don't see all the work that they do off screen to make it look that easy. All
that character development and the time they spend like really thinking about it. And it's interesting, because what I may, you know, what you and I may be writing with, like three chords, the thought process in our head, we're seeing a lot of other things. And we're thinking of other things where the other person may be like, I'm copying what they're doing. And so I that's, that's the extent of it. But meanwhile, they don't see deep within the thoughts of like, Oh, when I do this, it's because the production is gonna look like this. And I also have to keep it low, and also the type of singer they need, it has to have this XYZ kind of sound. And oh, I got to make sure dynamically, so all these other things are happening. But on the surface, it looks like oh, it might just just pick these three things. I'll do that. And then the they do that. And they're like, Well, how come it's not to that? How come the the things that you're hearing and the things that you're getting? I'm not getting that right now. It's because again, that's, that's only part of the step. But there's always these deeper things into putting in the work that allow you to gain new insight or develop a different process or thought process to why and you know, the next step and the next step and the next step, but when you're brand new, if you just go with that first step, that's really all you got. And then you're like, I guess the next step is pitching it. So cool. Let's do it. And it's like, no, you've gotten it's, you're getting way ahead of yourself, and you skipped in the work. I remember that being so, so frustrating, you know, like, every, every time that I made a little improvement, you know, on my songs like my, the next one that I did get a little bit better. I'm like, Okay, now this one's ready to be pitched. And this one's gonna land and then I would try it, and it wouldn't. And then I'd be like, All right, yeah, it can get frustrating. Because every time that you think that you're getting a little bit better, you never really know, when you've reached the mark of like, Is this good enough? Until, you know, until it lands, but the way to actually like, kind of save yourself some time. Like I say that from my experience of like, I didn't know it's all I you know, I just kept trying and like throwing stuff at the wall. Did that work? Nope. All right. The way to save is to work with somebody who's done, done that before. And then they can just save you a bunch of time and be like, this is exactly how you do it. That's not good enough. This needs work. And yeah, I wish I had somebody like that. What's fascinating about that idea, too, you just said like the process of, you know, well, free, right. And there somewhere, like while I'm rewriting all the time, but there's a crucial element, you're not getting someone looking in at your process and being like, yeah, you are rewriting. But you've used basically the same melody and the same structure for every single one of these songs. I can't tell seperation between them, like if you lined them up, they're all blending into each other. And so you've got to push past that. And the only way you can sometimes is when someone's looking in on the process and advising you that is a fast track to get to getting to where you need to be like when you looked in my process, you were like quit writing motherfreakin half songs, you were writing so many you're producing out to the point where it's like Big Head, little body, it's like, stop it, and spend your time just building out the rough structure of it. And do lots of that and do lots of listening and do think about where you want to go. Instead of just being like, oh, I want to be able to say like, I got that play. You want to be able to say that lots of times, but that's not going to happen if you're avoiding the obvious which to me. Maybe it's because I just wanted to seem better, like more than I was presenting because I'm like, Oh, just writing. I want to build this out. I want to so it's like I was skipping a step.
That is really interesting. Because there are times when like just like hyper focusing like what you were doing and you weren't getting distracted by like writing, you know, because we get this feedback sometimes like don't worry about the bridge. Don't worry about your outro Don't worry about the intro. Like just focus on a verse chorus. If you can lock that in, then you've got something to build out and that's kind of what you were doing instinctively when you were writing your little micro songs. Your your 32nd Opus is they were they were like 30 seconds, maybe 40 seconds of that, and the verses weren't clear and I look now and I'm like, Man, there was really no dynamic structure to, like they all I treat it like they all had to just like, they were a wall of sound.
Yeah, they were great for like stingers, you know, they were like great little like, boom, boom, boom and done. But you know, like, there's there's something to be said like, I really do think, you know, that's not exactly how I think you would recommend anybody do it now. But I don't think that that was necessarily a waste of time. You just kind of did it in a reverse order. And you had to take some steps back to now learn how do you build that back out? Right? Oh,
that's even so right there, which you said, I think is heavier, because I had to move back. You know, it's almost like in a board game where it's like, move back five space, just because we feel because we kind of like the feeling and I probably did of recording feeling like I was doing something. You know, I it was a tangible and I'm like, Oh, it made me feel good. The idea of just sing with guitar and sitting in kind of like the muddiness and the unsure and not making it sound. Super, super pretty right away was unappealing. But that's a step you can't skip. Yeah, like, especially if you're a songwriter, like you kind of have to, you have to do that a lot. Because if you want it to be instinct, and you want it to look natural, and you want it to flow, if you are, even if you've done songwriting for a while, but you want to do it at that level, you got a fucking, you have to write a lot of songs. And it's just like, that can't be something you skip over, because you just don't want to do it. And, you know, I was just thinking about this, you know, in terms of like not being ready, and things like that, you know, I've talked about how I transitioned into what I do now, you know, sink focus, working in the studio and writing and things like that. But that my, my start was coming out to LA to be a drummer, working with artists and stuff like that. And I started writing with those artists. And I was just thinking the other day, about a song that I've gotten my catalogue that I wrote with an artist who was signed to, I think downtown music at the time, which has, like, I think CeeLo Green and a bunch of other people on the roster. And her manager was cerebral Ellis's manager and rune fives managers. So she was like, pretty well connected. Yeah. And I was getting to write songs with her because I was her drummer, you know, and she liked me, I guess. But man, I was not ready. I was not at the level I hadn't put in the work, I wasn't prepared. And that's just one of those situations where, like, you know, kind of taking you back to what we were saying at the beginning. People want to write the songs and they're like, Okay, I did this. And now I want to pitch it now. I wanted to send it out. And you know, just skip right to the end. And it's not easy to hear you're not ready yet. This isn't at the level that's, there's still work to be done. And that's a hard thing to hear. That's, uh, especially when the potential is there. I think that is a, you know, a nugget of like, honestly, like, oh, I wasn't ready for that, at least recognizing it. Yeah.
I have to be honest, there's one thing that is always frustrating. It's when I see songwriters taking songs that still need to be developed that need adjustments, and they try to produce them out, or they pay 1000s upon 1000s of dollars to have someone produce it out, only to get a product back that they're not satisfied with that they're not happy with that they actually feel demoralized about the whole process. And then question, Should I be doing songwriting in the first place? Is there even a space for my songs? Regardless, if you're trying to aim for publishing trying to get a sync deal, or you just want to connect with an artist, here's the thing that needs to happen. You need feedback. You need feedback from someone you can look at and go, if future me looks like that. I'm absolutely okay. That's what I want to do. That's why I'm so glad Josh is doing song critiques. He has mentored me for years and got me to the caliber where I can get things placed consistently. And more importantly, I can create a stable living from this. Did you know that just one of Josh's songs has made him almost 200k in placements? 200k Think about that. Do you think you could learn from someone like that? So here's what you need to do. Go to songwriting for guitar.com and in the right hand corner, click book a critique and then book your session with Josh. Believe me, it is well worth it to save yourself hours of frustration and potentially 1000s and 1000s of dollars that you'll lose because the song is not ready. But instead getting the advice from Josh so you know what the next steps need to be. So songwriting for guitar.com right hand corner, click that red button that says Book your critique. Okay, let's head back into the episode it's interesting when you hear the phrase like, Oh, you're not ready, some people interpret that as like, Oh, you're not good. It's like, that's not what I said. I said, You're not ready. But in the moment, that's what it feels like, it feels like, Oh, I'm not good at the level. And it's like, well, no, you're just starting, the wheels are just turning what makes you think that you're going to skyrocket to like, you know, oh, yeah, you can, you can just buzzer it. No, of course, that's so silly. Like, why is there? You know, it's, it's a different level. But why do doctors have internships for several several years, is because they have to have that flow, or, you know, I taught years ago, a architect, and it was so crazy, I had it for like, six or seven years, surely became like an architect at the end of like this. Because it was like, and there are so many different tests, and there were so many different things she was studying. And she was like, it was a very thought out, you know, methodical next step, and I think was songwriting, especially if you want to do it to the level where, if you want to get into licensing, you want to have continue, or you want to write with artists, where you want to have that natural flow where you can be like, Yeah, I do want to get some things. But I'd love to write with artists, I want to be able to sit in a room and understand their vibe, listen to some of their songs and know directionally where it needs to go. Well, if you want that sort of flow, show me the work that you've put in. Yeah, and I think maybe it'd be interesting to hear what you think of that when, when I think of that, and somebody goes, well, the excuse meter, or the, you know, kind of the excuses start to come up. I go, instead of saying all of that, and this is something I heard a while ago, instead of saying, Oh, I think Rick Barker posted it and was really good. stead of saying like, I don't have the time right now to say it's not a priority. And just see how you feel? Yeah. Yeah, I've had a friend call me out on that pool. And I was just like, Damn, that's a good one. Because there's a lot there are opportunities to find the time to make it happen. It's I think we spend more time thinking about the reasons because maybe it's just we want to keep one foot in one foot out, keep the possibilities open, because we don't want to fully jump in because we're worried. But you kind of have to jump in fully. You just can't like have a dahlias. She's like what is this Dallas from the 1990s like Dalyan Siata dalliance with someone or like a period piece, I had to dalliance with songwriting.
You did something else that you touched on really quick that, you know, if anybody wanted to write with artists, and be in the room, and, you know, help that artists write the best songs they can, there is nothing more valuable as a co writer, than having a large catalogue of failed songs behind you. Because you're going to be in that room. And they're going to be throwing out ideas. And you need to know which ones to pursue, and which ones have potential. And what things you know, you've heard, like something like this before, and you've tried going down this path, and you can never get it to work. But you did take this and you made this thing over here. You know, I'm saying like, there was somebody that said, like you learn more from your failures than you do your successes. Because like when you succeed, you're like, Yes, I did it, and then you just move on. But when you fail, you have to find other ways to make it a success, you have to find other ways to make it work. And you might find two or three other ways. And that goes in your tool belt for later. For you to solve problems that come up what you described, right? There have been artists to throwing out ideas. Sometimes if you're new to this, they're all gonna seem great. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, okay, that's, that's awesome. But they're not looking for, like, validate. They want to know which one is the right one? And that's a different question. Because you can align them up and they can all be great. But it's like, what is the right one for what they're trying to aim for? And what's the vision that you can cast? So that comes through just putting in work and yeah, part of it during that period of work is being okay with things staying the way they currently are? And kind of, I don't know, messy middle, you know, there's probably a million different things that we could call this period of time. Because it's prepping you for every level. There's like, there's a messy middle of that level for every high. You go. There's a messy middle for that where things don't happen, and you just have to trek through it. Figure it out. out and, and try to piece together some sort of process or develop your process, refine the process. So if you skip that work in the early stages, you're actually setting yourself up for failure long term, because it's not going to be a one and done and you move on from the messy middle, there's just going to be other levels where it gets tougher and trickier. And you have to think new ways. I've really thought about this more and more. It's like, you can't skip the work, like, and the ways around it too. And maybe this is why people go, like, I'm paying someone to pitch and I'm not saying that it's not good to invest your money in people that will help. But if someone's saying, this is a quick solution to your ailment, kind of like the you know, the the medicine man, you know, just kind of like, you know, just like see here, this gives you all I'll pitch it for you, I'll do anything else, screw up your flaws and make sure you get that's not going to happen. And it's just like, it's that's where people fall for that sort of scheme. Because the other solution is like, work or throw some money at it, work, or throw some money at it. And it's always going to be like, Oh, you gotta do some work.
I know that. Oh, man, you're just like, you're bringing up so many, so many fields for me, because I man, I remember having that. That feeling to I was like, Man, I just wish I had somebody that was in my corner managers, somebody that was like, going to do and basically doing this work for me. Yeah. And you think like, okay, you know, I can pay this person. But man, it always comes down to if you're actually writing great songs. You don't have to pay anybody. There's gonna be people knocking at your door, you're gonna be the one that's choosing Yes, I'm gonna put my music with you, not you. That's how it's gonna work. And that's, I think that's how it is for us now, which sounds surprising when you you know, it sounds like egotistical is like, I'm good into you. And not you, you know. But really, I mean, it's like a business thing of like, what's working, you know, not exclusive, exclusive, you know, different decisions. But that's really how it plays out. And that's how people told me that it would play out. And at the time, I was like, What do you mean, people are gonna knock on my door? Or, you know, people aren't gonna want my music? Like, that's not happening, like, where are they gonna find me? You know, there's all these things, but it doesn't feel like that would happen. Because at the time, we only saw where we currently were. And it was just work. And it was just like, it feels like I have to like kick down doors. And it feels like, you know, I have to wedge myself in the middle just to get like someone to be like, oh, yeah, come on, in the idea of, you know, someone reaching out or saying that I'm like, I don't think that's going to happen.
But that all comes down to like actually putting in the work, because that's not going to happen. If you're not ready. If you're not actually like yeah, if the pieces aren't in place. So I was thinking the other day about, you know, putting in the work and things that I don't actually want to do. Like things, you know, I sometimes when I there's parts of making songs that I don't really love, like tuning vocals, it's kind of a tedious thing. But sometimes when you got a stack of harmonies, and you're trying to get them to line up, it's just like, you know, that's a whole thing that that's not really fun or creative, but it needs to be done. And there's kind of two things about it. One is it's kind of like exercising for me, like I don't really enjoy going to the gym and exercising, but I know that it needs to be done. And the the most important thing that I've learned is that I feel worse when I don't do it. So I might not love it. And it might not be the best part of the work that I need to be putting in or you know, the most fun part of the work that I need to be putting in. But if I don't do it, I feel worse. And it's the exact same thing with songs. If I don't put in the work, if I don't take the time to tune the vocals, align the tracks, you know, do the cleanup stuff, the track is going to end up worse. And then you know, it comes back to like taking all those steps back and like you end up having to do it anyway, if you really want to have it reached that level. Because no one's happy. Like the artists wouldn't be happy. If you're sending it in library. They're like we kind of like it because you change. So you have to go back to the thing. Yeah, to your point cuz sometimes people submit it anyway. Because they think maybe they won't notice. And it's like, here's the thing, if you're submitting a thing that you knowingly know needs this, and you're not doing it because you don't want to do it. Why should you get the great, like the steam in the press on the other end? That's so that, to me, it is honestly says no, it's like, because if you say it out loud, that sounds really silly. Especially when you're thinking about your competition who is doing it who are doing it like you're competing with major label artists and indie artists and really talented producers from all over the world. They're they're putting in the work. They're doing the difficult stuff. So that's what that's what I always kind of comes to my my mind is like Oh my competition is out there they're they're doing this. They're tuning their vocals, they're they're doing this boring stuff that I don't like doing. They're doing another take on the drums because they know that that drum fill rushed, you know, or whatever it is. And then the question comes back to Is it a priority for you to make this track the best that it could possibly be? The answer is yes. And so that's why you put in the work yeah. And that does it for this week. This episode was edited. Produced by Chris Mathias, I'm Mike Myers. Thanks for listening.
