Episode 82 : Co-writing is for Everyone

Jun 07, 2023
Co-writing is an essential skill for any aspiring writer, in any genre. It's also a skill that you can improve! We want to ensure that you can approach it with confidence and enthusiasm, rather than feeling intimidated by the idea of being an expert right from the start.
Throughout this episode, Mike Meiers and Heather Taylor tackle the questions they received from this amazing SFG songwriting community, who were curious about various aspects of co-writing.
Co-writing offers invaluable opportunities for growth and success, allowing writers to bring out the best in each other's work and elevate to new heights.
Whether you're new to co-writing or looking to enhance your skills, this caffeinated episode is filled with valuable insights and guidance.
If you found this information valuable, don't forget to rate this podcast, our team appreciates it!
Listen Here or read the (almost accurate) transcript below.

Mike Meiers 00:00

Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the Songwriting for Guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career that you love. Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational. Hey, What's up friends, Mike Meiers here with the songwriting for guitar Podcast, episode number 82. Co writing is for everyone. Now, this is something I talk a lot about. I talked about the benefits of CO writing you know, if I hear someone hasn't co written before, I'm like, You got it? You absolutely have to do it. And if I hear someone say like, I had a book bad co writing experience, I have questions because I bet we can figure it out. So you can have great co writing experiences or if you're someone that's done it, but you're looking to scale it if you're looking for better co writes, I got answers to that too. And in this episode, the wonderful Heather Taylor is with me and we put out a questionnaire to our songwriting guitar community asking like about CO writing, and we got lots of questions. Heather's pick them and she's gonna rapid fire gonna pick my brain about it. And this is great. So if you're someone that is wondering, how do I get started when it comes to co writing? What are things that I should or shouldn't do? How do I manage awkward conversations? You know, what's the best way to approach someone for a co writing or an artist? How do I scale it? And how do I preserve my co writes and, you know, build even long lasting relationships that ended up turning into great things, all of that if you've wondered that this is the episode you got to listen to? Because these were seriously some awesome questions. I want to do more of this. So we're gonna jump into this episode, episode number 82. Co writing is everybody say it with me? Is everyone.

Heather Taylor 02:00
Michael Meiers, how the heck are ya?

Mike Meiers 02:03
Oh, can I tell what a nightmare first grade was with a name Michael Myers, and Halloween, and just being just like this kid that had no idea what they were talking about. An older kids being the Michael Meier killer, and just being like, Oh, hi, that's my name. I don't know what you mean by that. And just this fair, confused child that grew up for a little bit as a very confused and only know. In many areas, I can be confused. But in this area that we're going to talk about, I feel pretty damn good. How are you? Heather? Taylor.

Heather Taylor 02:41
I'm doing awesome. I have a very big espresso cup. I know. And I'm ready to talk about CO writing

Mike Meiers 02:49
how many how many espressos is that for you today? Three. That's an appropriate amount. That's why thanks

Heather Taylor 02:55
one o'clock on a Friday afternoon. I'm celebrating this is how I celebrate you guys.

Mike Meiers 03:00
I was gonna say before you You joined songwriting for guitar. How much coffee Did you drink?

Heather Taylor 03:07
You ruined me. No, I would drink like, I drink like a cup or two maybe.

Mike Meiers 03:16
But I like to say it's increased.

Heather Taylor 03:19
It's definitely increased. Like, I'd even have to drink a cup. Yeah, in a day if I didn't. Like if I didn't want to. I wasn't feeling it. And now it's like, all day, every day,

Mike Meiers 03:31
all day, everyday, everyday, everyday, more, more, more, more, more, more. You got to drink it. You got to drink it, mambo.

Heather Taylor 03:40
Okay, so how many are you on right now? I mean, like,

Mike Meiers 03:43
surprisingly, this is only my third. So I had to I had two cups. And then now this is a big thermos full of coffee, which I actually I, I've been doing this a little bit more because I watched a video. We had Stefan Eggertsson from the descendants on like a while like, like a while ago, but amazing, amazing. But then I saw a video of him talking about the coffee habits. The Descendants did a video about like, how they do coffee. He gets a huge thermos to and then he puts it in a picture and just saves it so it's off the burner, so it's not burned. He was like, I'll drink cold coffee, but I don't want burnt coffee. And then Carl, the bassist has a massive, massive thermos and he just fills it up. And I'm like, it's good enough for the descendents. I mean, it's good. It's got to be good enough for me.

Heather Taylor 04:32
Good enough for this for this killer over here. This

Mike Meiers 04:35
one right here? Well, we're talking to me that we're gonna talk about CO writing. Because co writing is one of the it's like one of those things that you understand could benefit you. And there there are huge benefits to the workflow, the amount of songs you could potentially get done. But the starting of it is intimidating. There's a whole lot of thoughts that people have. And so we really kind of put a kind of like a questionnaire about CO writing, what is your fear? What are what are your questions about CO writing? Was your fear of CO writing? What are you worried that's going to happen? If you co write you know, so we're gonna, you've got a huge list a massive list.

Heather Taylor 05:21
I have, I have a good amount of questions. So I'm only going to pick a few from there. But yeah, we asked people in our community and I also asked other coaches in the community, what they thought so I would like to listen or ask you what your thoughts are about what their thoughts are. And we will go right there. Because yeah, you do a lot of CO writing and you always talk about, you need to be co writing, you need to be co writing more, and you need to be co writing quickly. Now for like a beginner, this could be a little intimidating, like, oh, wait, okay, so I've written by myself, and and I maybe have written in person with other people. But like, now, if I want to take it seriously, if I want to monetize this, how do you do that? How do you even attempt to write a song with somebody in two hours? You know that that's a big mystery. So that's what we're gonna dive into today. Do you have any thoughts right off the front end about CO writing and any main rules that you abide by?

Mike Meiers 06:23
Yeah. So the first thing is, if you hear me talk about coloring, and I'm like, Yeah, usually a co writes finished in like, you know, we finished the initial structure, like in the first hour, hour and a half and then start to refine, realize that is, after all, a whole, like, I probably started co writing not in a band sense, but actually individual rights taking seriously, like around like, 2016 17. And I didn't, and I, I have not written a song by myself probably since then. So don't miss it. i Yeah, it's just like, that's no, because so a couple of things. So realize that's the process. So it slowly developed over time, I didn't off the gate, start writing in under an hour to what it usually took a lot longer, because one thing that I would probably go back and tell myself is watch who you're pairing yourself with, because initially I just wanted to co write co write, co write, and I was filling my dates and my books was scheduled. And probably people look on if they're on Instagram, they're following all these songwriters. And they're posting all these co writes. So it seems like people are always co writing. But limit and think about who you're pairing yourself with? What is your skill set? What are you going to bring to the CO right, people say I'm a songwriter? That's cool, but like what part of songwriting do you feel is like your strength? Are you? Do you do melody to do lyrics? Are you doing the music side of it? And you should probably pair yourself, you should probably pair something together. Like if you're doing melody, it makes sense. Musically, you're gonna lead. At least in my mind, those two are just kind of together. It makes sense if you're going to bring in a lyricist. Cool. What kind of lyricist Are you writing for an artist Are you writing for licensing because if you bring in someone that does a whole lot of country, and you're bringing them in for licensing, it's probably going to be a bad match. Because they're going to be very descriptive, they're going to be very story centered, and it's not going to be very universal. Vice versa. If you bring in you want to go country, and you bring in a lyricist, that's more sync driven. They're going to be more broad, more general, more, more like, oh, let's focus on one moment, and not the whole story. So probably a lot of the bad co writes I had was due to my not thinking about the pairing, but just being like they want to write, they want to write they want to write they want to write, and those songs didn't really nothing happened with them.

Heather Taylor 08:46
Now, do you regret doing those songs or at the beginning of your co writing journey? Where you kind of like, okay, I kind of just need to get some practice under my belt. And that was that ended up being a good thing so that you could focus or would you Are you saying this now for people who are starting to be like, just skip all of that?

Mike Meiers 09:06
Probably? Yeah, I would say skip that. It was definitely it was good for me. Because then I started to develop a process and realize halfway, oh, I'm pairing myself with the wrong people. And then I fixed the problem. So it's good that that happened, because they became aware of it. But allow my mistake to now be the thing that you realize, oh, that's what I need to watch. Because will that set you up for? You know, is it better to build a good relationship with somebody over time writing a whole bunch as you're growing together with the same purpose and the same intent? Yeah. So allow my mistake to be the thing that you learn from.

Heather Taylor 09:43
I love that though. What you just said was grow with people too. I think that is something that beginner co writers can realize is that there are other people like that are kind of at the same level as you with the same goals that you can grow with If Yeah, and I've seen it in the community to where people are like I've never co written before. And and I'm talking about like an insider's track. And even in just guitar Central's for the modern songwriter, people are getting together over zoom and just writing like that, and are making a lot of progress. So it's not that you have to start co writing, and then you have to immediately shoot for like writing with Selena Gomez or something. Like, no, you can, you can grow with people. And,

Mike Meiers 10:29
yeah, it's good to aim for people kind of in that same area with you. So that because it's cool, there's a lot of, I guess, like Grace, where it's like, Hey, I'm growing, you're growing, we're gonna go easy, we're not gonna be like, harsh on each other. It's like, Hey, we're gonna, it's creating a team too, and kind of learning and sharing with each other. And if that happens, that's where you can have some really good partnerships that could be like yours, yours, and not just just like a one off song, which is not the intent of CO writing. At least for me, it's not the intent. Some people may think that but to me, it's like, if I'm bringing someone circle, I'm thinking, cool. We're gonna develop something over time. And then we're going to have a nice body of work that we're building up.

Heather Taylor 11:16
Now, who is your longest co writing partner?

Mike Meiers 11:20
You know what it would probably Madeline Finn would probably be one of them. She's She's one of the definitely there. I would still say, you know, it's funny, because yeah, Heather Evans to is another one. Ladies getting up there as well. Those to me, those are the three that kind of stick out, which makes sense. Because those are people that I've connected with Josh the soul, in terms of mixing, because there was a lot of projects in the beginning, I felt good. In the CO writing stage, I felt good in the production stage. But then I didn't feel good in the mixing stage. So I just brought him in. And we shared percentage, and that just made things go so much faster. Like the song I because my focus, I could develop my mixing skills back. And really, then we could get songs out very quickly. And also there was a standard, there was a standard. So it was like we were able to pivot and say like, here's basically a full song built out. Can you just mix it well? And you're like, Yeah, I can do that in my sleep. And you

Heather Taylor 12:18
weren't spending money. You were just including people in on the percentage fold? Which is such a great idea.

Mike Meiers 12:25
Yeah, it worked out that I just didn't have money to. Yeah. And so it's like, and that's the thing to just give up. If you realize that you're writing more and more, and you're building that framework, you're building that team with that CO writing, then you're not thinking about like, oh, we only have three songs, but you realize, oh, we got lots of songs. So it's like you're not, you're okay with giving up a little that percentage, because you're not holding on to it like this is all we have.

Heather Taylor 12:51
Because you know, there's going to be more because you've been writing for a long time, or you will write for a long time, hopefully, yeah, one of the CO writers that you mentioned how there Evans, one of her suggestions is to don't just jump in, but get to know each other. That's something that you use a lot, too. So that makes sense about why you guys have been riding together for a long time because you started off well, well, it's,

Mike Meiers 13:13
you know, when we met, it was the pandemic too. So it's like, you can't just go into a riot and be like, Hey, how's it going? I saw he was just like, an even then like our correspondence via Instagram, which I always joke with other which took a little bit because one message, and then there was this long period where I didn't hear for, for like a month or two. And then I was just like, and I was like, Hey, are you still interested? And she was like, absolutely. And I was like, awesome. How about this date? Then there was like three weeks. But that, you know, and then once I got to know, Heather, you know, she's mom, she's got two kids at that time. She was I think she was still in Sacramento. And she was like, Yeah, you know, and we were like, Man, this pandemic isn't say, and we just talked about, you know, probably that front end was a lot of talking. So I think even before you set up a CCO, right, it's okay to just book a time over zoom. Literally, just to talk. Think of it almost as like an interview, you know, you can find it, you know, we all go like, you know, I got this vibe, or I got this feeling whether it be good or bad. You will in that Zoom kind of pick up if Are they easy? Are they chatty? Are they just a very like, oh, no, this is how it is? Because if if you're not like that you can already potentially see there might be some issues. If you're more of a free flowing person. It's not that their perspectives wrong or how they they just need to be paired with somebody that is more aligned with that way of creating

Heather Taylor 14:41
want to go and get get things done. Yeah. And it's

Mike Meiers 14:45
for me, I'm the same way I want to go and get things done. But the same time I'm just like, I realized my end is I better be flexible a little bit. So if they're like Hey, I like to write you know, I like to have a track or maybe a little bit beforehand to listen to Before we meet, cool, I'll do that if they're very much like, hey, I want to be there at the, you know, Crown Florida building. Okay, we'll do that. So I think for my role, I've tried to be adaptable over time. And I think that's what made those rights with Heather really good, because I just, you know, in the conversation, I saw what her process is. She's very much, you know, hey, I just want to get the song out really quick. And then we can talk about bpm, very little of me was building out anything. And then it's different with Lainey. Sometimes we're doing the full song, but there are other times I may pull something up and she's like, oh, yeah, there we go. With Mattie. It's, it's, it's, I'm surprised we get anything done. Because now it's in person. She shows up. It's basically 20 minutes of petting Lila, and, and then she gets in here, and she was like, Okay, what are we gonna do? And you know, it's a very kind of like, here we go. Let's just we look at the body of work we've done, we've aside like, cool, let's do something that's more like this. But let's maybe look at this angle. Or, you know, she'll come in with weird projects, like when she was like, Hey, listen, I have to do a cover ACDC. And I have to make it like dark, haunting and orchestral. Like, that's weird. All right, here we go. So that so it's like, all three of those have a little bit of a different flow. But you have to I guess, you can either be rigid, you can be chatty, or you can just I like to think of me as kind of like yoga. If you're very flexible, creatively, in whatever process needs to happen.

Heather Taylor 16:32
I think that's awesome. Yeah, those are all your co writing experiences. When I hear about them, they seem like dream co writing experiences for a lot of people. So how would you recommend even setting up a zoom in the first place? And like being like, Hey, I like what you? Do I kind of want to cooperate with you. Do you want to just like, chat? Or yeah, how do you approach somebody who's

Mike Meiers 16:55
it's kind of like, it is a little bit like dating. It's just like, it is a little bit of dating. I would say to you, if you're going to use Zoom, my biggest advice, just get a paid version of zoom, please don't run off the

Heather Taylor 17:08
screen on me out right now. Well,

Mike Meiers 17:11
luckily, you can log in with my account. So works, it works. But yeah, don't don't use a pay, don't use a free version of zoom, because of the first impression is like, Okay, you got to end and then you send me and then it's, it's just gonna that's just already, that's a little too much. So get a free get the paid version of zoom. It's super cheap. It's very, very cheap. The other thing I would say is have some good lighting beforehand. I mean, you see, we haven't even gotten into the call yet. It's just like, what is the presentation going to look like? It's really, I think we've gotten a little too comfortable in zoom, where we feel like we're watching TV. And so when I see people eating when I see people slouching, when I see people with weird camera angles, when I see people just you know, just not creating a space that feels welcoming. It's going to be weird. Think of them if they came to your studio, would you have food on the floor? Would you have the lights off? Yeah, shut your lights off. Would you be sitting in your bed with the laptop and looking down? Yeah, I don't, I don't like that. So my biggest thing is think about it doesn't have to be a fancy camera, you can still use your laptop, but put it on a desk. You don't have to get a crazy, you know, setup for Mike. But you know, have your air pods on, you know, or have like little USB mic that you plug in. They're super cheap, just something that they can see and hear you clearly. And if it's just, yeah, just prep, just make it look and then do a test. That's what's great. You can record it, and just be like, what is it going to look like on that other end when they like clock? Is it going to be weird and freaky. It's just like, it needs to look slightly presentable. That's just it. So it's like this is even before meeting, and then when you meet with them. Don't talk all the time. At you know, be like, hey, it's so good to meet you. You know, I'd love to know how to get into this too, because I thought I was you know, find something to connect with and create that ground of conversation.

Heather Taylor 19:17
And that you're actually curious about Yeah, that's the thing too,

Mike Meiers 19:21
because CO writing sometimes can be a shakedown where if somebody's like, hey, you know, I want to write with you, you know, there's great a new you and they're talking about like, do you want to if they're talking about like, would you want to release this cutter and it's only you haven't even written a song yet? That is so uncomfortable. It's so weird. It's the I just don't like that. Even in some retreats that then you know, I remember writing songs and one person asking the artist that was in the room like would you cut it, would you and I'm like I don't want to ask that. Don't ask

Heather Taylor 19:57
Yeah, wait, so that just wait to be approached? Yeah. Would that be that the advice?

Mike Meiers 20:01
Yeah, it's just wait till you have a song and wait till you have a. Yeah, before asking like, do you want to like release, it's like, listen, you're not going to ship gold at first that's, it's like, it's good about you. But maybe if Lila accidentally eat some, that's the only instance that see it. But it's like, don't assume that first, the first couple of rights you are going to be if you get to that point are going to be where you actually develop stuff, because the first couple there, okay, but the next couple, that's where you start to get into a rhythm of how you communicate with the other, but asking them, hey, what, you know, what are you doing with music? And what what would you love to see happen? Because if they go, I would love to get a publishing deal. I think a publishing deal would be awesome. You know, that'd be amazing. And you go, I would love to release more songs into libraries that are one stop. Okay, that is a little bit different. Because then if they get a publishing deal, then you have to go through the publisher, it's not gonna be one stop, and it's gonna be a pain, it's gonna be annoying. And it's like, so you can either be like, Okay, well, maybe, you know, we could try. Right, but I don't know, you know, I want to be clear, you know, I may be looking for this. So I foresee a problem. That's okay. And, you know, we may have to come to a certain point where we, you know, we may have to talk more about this, then talk about your roles, what are what are your strengths, you know, if they have anything you can listen to, that's always super helpful.

Heather Taylor 21:34
Mm hmm. Yeah, being prepared, but even before asking, but being prepared, going into a co right, and knowing their strength is really important, because you don't want to, like, if they're a great producer, you don't want to go up to them and be like, Hey, do you want to produce something in a completely different genre, I really like your style. I mean, that's gonna be, that's gonna be hard for them. And it's going to be, it's not going to turn out great, especially if it's gonna be like a first co writer or something, it's probably

Mike Meiers 22:00
not gonna turn out well, and you're gonna be wondering why. So it's like, just, you know, talking on that front end, and then deciding from there. Cool. I think this would work really well, if it works really well. Awesome. Let's book a date and get that down. And that's where you, you know, create a little zoom link your email to them, you put in your calendar, you get a notification, and then you gotta prep. Are you going to be thinking of title ideas? Are you going to be thinking of reference ideas? Are you how does that prefer person like to be preferred communication? Because at the beginning, is probably just going to be email, where you just kind of send a few ideas back and forth. Hey, what do you think? And so basically, you're setting yourself up when that right starts, you're not spending the first 30 minutes deciding what should we do, there is going to be a level eventually. And I mean, way down the road where you get comfortable enough that you can have that sort of casual, casual press, because you've created a large body of work with them, you understand what you do, and then you can have those, like, if Maddie comes in, she goes, Hey, I'd love to write it, you know, it crazy got placed a lot, we should do something that's kinda like jet like that again. But maybe let's do a different angle. That's fine. But that's probably not how we wrote in the first like, you know, 1015 20 songs, it was very just like, specific, this is what we're going to do. We picked days to where if she was in town, we did a batch right where it was like, We did one song and we took a break, got something came back, did another song, took a break, came back and did another song took a break. You did

Heather Taylor 23:36
a session last night with Jasmine Valdez, another co writer of yours. And she was talking about that exact same thing. Like before, she says before you put any words down on paper, know your songs, story and your audience. And so you have to talk about that together before you do anything. Otherwise, it's going to completely change the tone and the tambour of the whole thing

Mike Meiers 24:04
is gonna suck because you're going to be thinking like, this is perfect for data. And this other person's thinking about how this was perfect. And it's being stretched in two opposite directions. And you wonder why nothing's getting finished. And you're frustrated because you think it's them. They're just ruining the song. And they're thinking it's them. It's ruining the song. It's actually both of you because nobody talked at all about what's going to happen. I think it's because people think like writing a song is it is inspiration. Yes, but it's like it's you're just not gonna magically sit there and a song appears. It's a lot of talking things out. And a lot of people don't like to talk out there's a lot of silence that creeps into CO writes. And the more you let silence creep in. It gets longer, longer at bay. It's like a couple drifting apart. But it's such a and that's why I feel I was like that it's just like, I used to know, you used to share all your ideas now. And then it just it just drifts apart. And I think that's also where somebody has to speak up and be like, cool, either. And this takes a very brave person to be like, Listen, you know, something's going on right now, because I don't think the songs happen. So let's, let's take, let's pause for a second. Either we're gonna restart on something different, or let's take a look at what we need to do differently, and maybe pick another day and just start fresh.

Heather Taylor 25:31
That's such a good suggestion and the bravery part. I think a lot of people are gonna be like, Yes, I need to be brave in order to do this. And that's a that's one reason why somebody needs to be brave, too, is like, what if it goes off the rails? What like, that was even one of the questions from one of the community members, what is the best thing to do if you and the other writers do not know where to start with a co Right? Like, even starting, and then, you know,

Mike Meiers 25:55
I just hear that there was no talking, because they assumed the co-write starts when they just decide and book a day. But really, it's that back end of just talking about what you're gonna do, sharing ideas, really getting, you know, finding out how that person I know that, you know, there's visual learners, there's, and then there's people that prefer, like a PDF with text, you know, and it's the same thing. Well, how does your co writer like to think about ideas? Do they like to hear a little bit of something? Do they like to hear a little bit of something with a reference track so that in their mind, they can paint the picture a little bit, so that if it's a lyricist, they can be like, Oh, I can get the visual imagery I can talk about? I'll think of some descriptive words, if they are like the artists, do they prefer having a melody, something they can sing? Do you know their key? Have you listened to what they've done? How did you even talk about that in the front end? Because I talked about keys at the beginning before and I'm like, what keys do you like to write in? What do you do? And if they don't know, I'll try to listen beforehand. And then just kind of go through some songs and be like, okay, so that this is the key. That's the key. There we go. Cool. We've got something to start with. So you really have to know what is their form of how do they like to create? Because how you create may not necessarily be how they get their ideas.

Heather Taylor 27:09
Oh, man. Yeah. All that like whoever's listening, like, go back. Repeat that, because that was a lot of gold right there. There was another question. I think we already answered it. But is it good to write with people who have different genres in you? Yeah, we already answered that. So it's like, maybe a slightly different genre is okay. Like, if you do dark rock, you can kind of go into dark pop or something. But you don't want to go from like, Americana, all the way over to, you know, whatever,

Mike Meiers 27:38
build build a something first before you start to like, then branch out other things. The only time that I've done something that was out of my zone, but it was kind of in my zone was there I did two songs with Tamara bubble. One was super hip hop and rap, which is not my forte at all. But my contribution was a guitar loop. That was it. That was it. Because she was like, I want like a cool little guitar loop. And I was like, Cool. I sent two or three to the producer. And they took it and did something completely different, where I was just like, what, and the only other time was when she wanted to branch into things that had more kind of like boots, stomp rock, and she did a little bit of like rap overtop of it, which then got used and shameless, but that's the only time I would say, out of the hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of songs. That was the only time that it kind of branched out a little bit. But again, it stayed in my comfort zone, which was a guitar. Yeah, thing I had to go with. I just asked key. And that was it. I was like, What's your key? And then all I had was a blank template. And I just played some guitar riffs. And that's it. And I just sent a couple off. That's all my involvement was.

Heather Taylor 28:56
Yeah. And that worked because you had had so many other co writes, you knew your voice. Yeah.

Mike Meiers 29:09
Hey, it's Mike. I just want to jump in the middle of this episode. Let me guess You are a songwriter that is never short of ideas. But you've got a million voice memos. You've got them all categorized there. Tons of voice memos. Well, let me tell you something right now. You want to level up your game, but I'm going to be honest, those voice memos. You can't show those. What you need is a better a better recording a better version. That means you have to break open your DAW. So whether it's logic, whether it's Pro Tools, whether it's FL studios, whether it's Ableton, here's the thing. It's overwhelming, it's confusing, it's, it's daunting, it's it's so crippling. That's why Madalyn Finn, one of our coaches has a free series dot one on one. So all you got to do is go to songwriting for guitar.com and you're going to scroll down to our free resources and you're going to See da, one on one, you're going to click it, you're going to sign up. And she's going to take you through the process of how to record a fantastic guitar vocal with with minimal stress, it's going to sound way better than your voice memo, that you feel great that you can show off to a producer, you could show off to a publisher, you could show off to your co writer, you can convey your ideas much more effectively with a quality recording. So song rank for guitar.com, scroll down to our free resources section and sign up for da 101.

Heather Taylor 30:36
What advice do you have for songwriters who are only interested in pitching their songs to other artists and wants to make the most of their career in that way? Yeah. So you kind of touched on this earlier. So if they only want to pitch to other artists, would you would you write with them? Or would you just say oh, it doesn't look like we have a good matchup if you don't want to write for artists? Well,

Mike Meiers 30:58
if you It depends on your role. So if you're someone that's like a songwriter, well, everybody's a songwriter. But if you're more of the producer type more of the melody type. It'll be easier, I think, to find someone that is an artist that maybe you want to gear for. It's, you know, the ones that are the higher up, there's more gatekeepers, and they already have their team people that they really love riding with. And that's kind of why I kind of stopped doing eventually like country a little bit when I was doing because it was just like, why are we pitching this to like, you know, Kenny, Kenny's already got the people like, are we gonna like you know, melt the door, break it. It's just like, No. So it's easier to find people that you can go out to and see in a show in a small local show or writers round where they're kind of their, their work ethic is visible, because they're doing all these different rounds. They're playing, they're playing, they're playing, they're out there. They're showcasing songs, that there's no gatekeeper that you can easily approach in a non creepy way. I should say, this is a big thing. I think for dudes, you have to realize, even though you may be a non creepy dude, if you're approaching, you know, a female artist, don't, don't just don't be creepy. Don't say creepy things. Just be complimentary. Be polite, and be aware that they probably get tons of weird guys. They're kind of being like, hey, that guitar is cool. You know, just like what are you doing after like, just being total weirdos?

Heather Taylor 32:36
Don't comment on somebody's look. Don't comment on Lux ever know, if you want to have a professional relationship with a female artists. Don't ever do that. Just like it just basic rule. You should comment on their talent on their abilities on their bravery of performing in front of like, you know, if like something happened or something. It's like, Hey, I love how you handled that situation in this, you know, like, always go to something that they did. If you if you want to not be creepy, you know, like, engage as a human.

Mike Meiers 33:10
That's the big thing. It has to not be creepy.

Heather Taylor 33:14
I have so many opinions about that. Yeah, well, that's the

Mike Meiers 33:17
thing too. I just don't think, you know, as I do, sometimes I just don't realize it. But then I realized, oh, wait a minute. I'm coming from perspective. Like I'm being sincere. They don't know that they've had, you know, a bunch of different experiences of weirdos and guys being like, Hey, girl, that's pretty cool. Like, you're pretty sweet. Like, oh, you know how to play a thing. That's pretty cool. That's impressive. Yeah, let's

Heather Taylor 33:38
get together to write quote, yeah.

Mike Meiers 33:41
And so your goal is to just, you know, say something complimentary and be like, hey, you know, I will, you know, I'd love to, you know, to maybe get together for coffee and talk about potentially, or just talk about something, you know, I always like to say, you know, either public space or resume where it's like, they feel like, okay, cool that they have an out.

Heather Taylor 34:02
Yeah, right.

Mike Meiers 34:04
They feel very, I'm not saying like, Hey, come on over my studio. Come on over my plate. You know, none of that. Yeah. So I think that's a big thing. If you're approaching you know, from the dude center of approaching a female artists, but in general, if you want to write with an artist, right with someone that is approachable, there's no gatekeeper, you can easily just walk up to them, but also to make sure you're matching in the genre it and if they said, Yes, what are you going to bring to it? And what are you going to bring? That's going to make their thing really good? Nobody cares if you and I mean this in the nice way. Nobody cares. If you're just like, I write good lyrics. They don't know that. Do you have anything to share today? You got like to get like a little QR code they can scan so they can see like some of the things that you've done? Do you have anything? If the answer's no, I would say it's not that you can't write for artists, but maybe just not yet. Wait until you have one or two things that you can share with somebody before or you just go up and you're like, hey, I want to write for you. And they're probably gonna ask, cool, what have you written? And if you go nothing, then they're gonna be like, okay, cool well, right? They may say politely like, either there'll be blood and they'll be like, I don't really do that. Or they're like, oh, things are really busy right now. See? Yeah, just like peace. So that's my thought you can write for artists. But don't be afraid to just start writing first and get that wheel turning. Especially if you know the genre and the style that you want to create. A lot of

Heather Taylor 35:36
Yeah, yeah, another coach, Josh Doyle says, get to know one genre really, really well. Like get to know your genre really well. And then you can and then start branching out, but then at least you know, one thing and you have found references and you know, your style, and you know, your lyrical writing style and everything. And then once you have a really good perspective, then then you're going to have more confidence, and you're going to identify people who write in that style as well. And it will be more natural, right?

Mike Meiers 36:06
It's, you have to write a lot. And when people are like, well, how much a lot like if I wanted to write something that was like, oh, no, like, it's not something I write a lot of like Dua Lipa, I need to write like, a ton, like 2530 songs. 40 sounds like a lot. I can't assume that in five, I'm going to understand the formula of it, because it's gonna feel very much like a formula. There's no heart, there's no soul, there's no creativity, there's no big chant. Those are things or if I wanted to be like, oh, I want to, you know, people joke about Nickelback, yes, I could make something that's like, you know, rare, but it's going to feel, it's not gonna feel like that there's something that they're doing. And I can't understand that within two or three or five songs. So I think there's sometimes people underestimate styles and genres thinking like, Oh, I'll get it in just a couple they wish they could get in a couple, you really have to sit with it. And you have to write a lot of it. Because you have to realize some of these people, this, you can't accumulate what they've built up in their entire life. You're trying to do that in like three or four songs. No, not gonna happen.

Heather Taylor 37:20
So yeah, if you do end up writing in a different genre, it's with a co writer than just be honest about about that. It's like, I haven't written a lot in this. But just so you know.

Mike Meiers 37:33
Just so you know, you can try. Yeah, but it's it's definitely that thing of really knowing that genre and just staying with it for quite a while, and being patient with yourself. And that's why it's good to find co writers there at that same level, because you are going to find that amount of patients, because they're going to be like, oh, man, this isn't new for me. We're going to do lots of learning together.

Heather Taylor 37:54
We're learning together,

Mike Meiers 37:55
we're together. Yeah,

Heather Taylor 37:56
it's true. Heather Evans also says, Be confident what you bring to the table, and also ask what the other person's strengths are, and lean on those and encourage them in their strength. So that goes right along with what we were saying. And I really liked that advice. And yeah, once you do once you know your genre, then it's like, being competent in that and pumping yourself up about it, I think is probably a really important thing. Keep on practicing. How do you prepare for CO write Mike, as a as a producer,

Mike Meiers 38:25
from my perspective, it's, again, still talking. So in this case, I know all of them really well that I can send them a text and once we have a date down, cool, what are we going to do? What are we gonna do you have something in mind? Like cuz sometimes Heather Evans is like, oh my god, I got this brief, and it's gonna be so good. I'm gonna send it to you. And this is one thing. I'm like, Cool that now I know what to do. With Maddie, she may be like, Hey, I have this idea. She may send me a little broken, kind of like, little voice memo or something. I'm like, No, that's cool. Jasmine is usually like, hey, what, you know what, what, uh, whatever we want to do. We've been on this dark, haunting streak. And I think that's just going to continue with Laney, she's like, Hey, I have all my releases set up for the rest of the year and a bit of next year, but I want to work right, something that's like data, like exactly like it kind of has this feel. So all of them know what to convey. Then it's up to me to whether it's a zoom, or if it's zoom, then making sure the Zoom is set up that my audio set up. I've got loopback we've got a Google doc open. I've got my dial up and they can hear my guitar. Everything is clear. And it's good. I'm on time. I'm there just a little bit before. So it's just like punctuality matters. Vice versa. If they're coming in, they're coming. My studio is the place organize this set. And then I'll have the door open up the mic on. Ready. I have a Google doc up here. Do they like coffee which everyone does so I'm like, There's a fresh, there's a fresh pot of coffee on it's all good. It's organized I don't look like crap. Like I'm like, slightly or like, I look like I just tried a little. I mean that again, I don't mean that in a bad way. But these are things that I think some people just like skip over. Because they're so like, well, we're gonna wrestle, I'm like, Yeah, but how you're holding yourself how you're, how you are presenting yourself actually does matter. And then also to, for any of those co writes, whatever has happened for the rest of the day, figure out where you feel is the best time that you function. Sometimes you may be breaking code, you may be booking co writes at an at a time where it's just like, you're not performing at your best. You're actually you're, you're just gone. People don't think of that.

Heather Taylor 40:46
Now, if you're a beginner, and you're not with people that you have been co writing with for a while, I've heard you talk about song starters before. So would you if you've already had a zoom with a co writer, would you take that concept? And then do a song starter? Would you do a few would you?

Mike Meiers 41:07
Yeah, I would. Because if it's a brand new co right, you want to eliminate the sort of nerves that probably eat, especially if you're both brand new to it. You're already kind of like, you kind of want to impress them, too. And you and they want to impress you at first, that's the thing to both you're both you both want a good song and you want to be Yeah, you want a great outcome. So realize that don't don't be worried about you know, I don't know if they like me, they're probably thinking the same thing. I don't know, if they liked me, I hope they like me. So the idea to break that, at least to me, some of this ice to have kind of pulling us out of our heads and actually into his base of creativity is like, how much can we create that allows our mind to go where it needs to go. And so a song starter could be as simple as you do a couple chords on the piano. And then there's like, let's say it's like more of a ballad type thing, or haunting thing, cool, some slow chords, and then maybe there's an eerie sound underneath that just gives a little atmosphere so they can listen to be like, oh, yeah, it kind of puts them at ease a little bit, but also allows them to get in the space of like, oh, yeah, I can see that. If you're writing something that's more indie rock cold, you can just throw on just like a few chords, or maybe a lick or something. Or some sort of drumbeat that kind of paints the energy level of what you're trying to create. I think those can be so good at just pulling us out of our heads and into that creative zone. And also feeling like we don't have to carry the full idea. Because if you just have chords, sometimes it's hard to think of like, okay, what would the sound like with an eerie sound? Or, you know, what would it sound like with this though? Song starters are great ways of communicating, and getting ideas off the ground and moved into a direction that eventually is a full song.

Heather Taylor 42:53
That's awesome. Yeah, I love that idea. And I, I personally write like that, like, I like hearing the possibility first, and then I can dive into the vibe. So you say Don't let any any sound or like any silence. Enter the code. Right? Right. So when you are showing like the, the song starter and like looping it over and over, are you both humming to it? Or what? What does that kind of look like? Yeah, it is. It's

Mike Meiers 43:22
just like, where sometimes if they're here, then I just loop it. And I'm like, so I'm thinking like, maybe if there's no melody yet, then I'll usually just be like, What about something like that, and then it gets them kind of nudges them to just then start saying, but then you'll notice too, you may have to do that in the beginning, if that person is very self conscious, because both parties are going to be self conscious. So it's just like, everybody is thinking, they're thinking of ideas in their head. But they're not saying it the thing with CO writing is you have to get comfortable just saying it. And we're allowed to, yeah, because we want the idea to be perfect we want. So we're refining the idea before it even comes out of our mouth. With co writing you you want that filter away so that you just it's just, you whatever it is, because if you don't do that, then the other co writer can't play off of it. And so that's what's great. You don't have to finish the idea. You can have a half, you can have a half thing. And then the CO writer kind of plays off that and goes, Oh, that's awesome. I also love because there are moments where you say something, and they don't hear you correctly. And they go Hi, it's a great idea. And then they say the thing and you're like I didn't say that at all, but that's really good. I like that. And it's like wow, wouldn't that suck if I didn't say that? If I just filtered it? We'd still be stuck here.

Heather Taylor 44:40
Good point. I am much funnier in people's minds than I actually am. I'm always they're like, Oh, is that what you just said? Hahaha I'm like, Nope, not at all. I

Mike Meiers 44:52
said it's going to be a sunny day. No, I actually said raining hell and fire. But nevermind, nevermind. Let's go with Good day, I think that's even better. I love that. But I think that's the benefit. So it's, you know, when you're doing this, yeah, if I have it on loop, I am just kind of like, hey, what about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? What about until they go like, Oh, and then they start playing off of it. So it's like, if they automatically talk, awesome. But if they don't, then I'll get things kind of rolling. And if I feel we get to a spot where we had some rolling, and then oh, this could potentially be like a part that like gets us hung up. I'm usually either throwing ideas or being like, hey, you know, since we kind of got what the first malady is, don't listen, don't worry about the bridge yet. Let's just Let's just go and finish, like, make some changes to let's do verse two. And then maybe like, that'll give us an idea story. So it's always not freaking out, about like, we don't have that, that's a big present, don't freak out. But act super casual about it, and just be like, hey, that's okay, we can get that that's fine. No worries, let's just do this. Because this works great. And sometimes that's the other job of a co writer is just the build the other one up for a little bit. Because it's going to be the roles are going to reverse, they're going to be some days that you feel like you've contributed shit, and you don't feel good about it, and the other person they're gonna go into, it's great. Like, this is awesome, hush, you're fine. And it's like that sort of. That's how it needs to be. That that's why it becomes enjoyable. And not like this constant like, nail biting, what's next? What's next, I don't know how they're going to act. If you're constantly feeling like that, then there's not enough communication, or you're not clear enough about the idea and what your intention is with the song or your roles, like the ships not being steered. And you're just going around in circles.

Heather Taylor 46:45
Well, yeah, what I'm hearing from this is a co write should be fun, loose, energized. So if both of you can get to that same page, then you are gold. So a lot of prep work, a lot of just friendly back and forth. And, and then just keep on rolling with it and keep on encouraging each other. And yeah, who would not want to write with you at that point, if you are encouraging, if you're positive, you're if you're energized, you know, happy, then you create good ideas together. I love that.

Mike Meiers 47:19
And that's the thing, some people may not want to write with me, because they're like, that's not how I write. Like, that's cool. But the reason you have to be so like this, or so open on how you want to do it is because that will then also pull in the people that you should be connecting with. When you do a fake facade. Don't be surprised that you started attracting the wrong people. And it's just like, that's not how you are. So of course, you're gonna, if you're pretending to be this, you're gonna be attracting that it is like dating. It's just like, why am I doing this? I don't want this, it's like, well, then don't do that.

Heather Taylor 47:52
And then you'll be extra nervous, because you're like, Wait, I don't know how I would respond to this.

Mike Meiers 47:58
And I know this could sound overwhelming to somebody in the front end, because it's just like, it's a whole. And it is it can be an acknowledged Yeah, it can feel overwhelming can feel like where do I find these people? Where do I do? I mean, that's why I love that people that are in the insiders are connecting with other people in the answers because everybody's doing licensing. That's their focus. So it's not like somebody's gonna be like, I'm trying to do that. They're connecting. And they're also pairing strengths. They're also aware of that, which I think is huge. Because that's essentially, yeah, it's really good. But the benefits, you're gonna get a lot more songs. And you're gonna, you're gonna have somebody that's also doing the thing as well, because they're great moments, and they're frustrating moments. And it's even better when you're maybe down and out. And then they're coming in. And they're kind of like looking and they're like, Hey, is everything okay? You know, because there have been times where we haven't done a ko Right? Like, we're just like, listen, yeah, we don't have to do this right now. Because like you're not feeling so let's just go get something to eat. And then we can just reschedule it, you know, not flipping Lin was supposed to be right. And it was supposed to be lighter. You know, that doesn't get you anywhere, because again, they're just to get it hit. Yeah, we'll push get it here. And it's just like, I think now, that idea of hits, it's just like, that's not a thing. It's just like, you want a lot of good songs that can have lots of legs, do the thing that you want to do, but having a solid relationship. I think one of the worst piece of advice I got from somebody was like, even if you you don't get along with the person keep on writing if you get great songs, and I was like, No,

Heather Taylor 49:36
you don't get with the person you're not going to be Yeah, have a gate those hard spots, then

Mike Meiers 49:41
that's someone that's just like and I'm like, You know what that may have worked for them. That's maybe how their disposition is and how they just kind of deal with it. And maybe they can but for me, can't do it. I'm sorry. I want to talk to you. I want to you know, kind of be a little goofy. I want to you know, I want you to you know You know, be relaxed, and I want to be relaxed. I don't want to be on edge all the time. I don't like that I drink too much coffee to be on edge, wondering like, Oh, should I say this? Or should I just wait? I was just like, what is that. So if you're someone that's still new to this, and you haven't tried, please do, because you're going to be robbing yourself of some great experiences, good friendships, great songs, and potentially grow, like, you know, people that can also help you in other areas, because you know, their contacts become your contacts. When you have something awesome, you're going to invite them in. It's a very, you know, there's reciprocation on both ends, which I think is really, really good. And if you've had maybe one or two rights that didn't go well, think of go back to some of the things that we listened to on the prepping side on the the communication side, because probably there you're gonna see, there was some sort of break down, there was something that just that didn't happen, which then caused the whole thing to fall apart. But now you know what to look for. So go do it again.

Heather Taylor 51:05
So do you think that every buddy who writes songs can co write? Yes? And should?

Mike Meiers 51:12

Heather Taylor 51:15
Everybody gets a call, right?

Mike Meiers 51:17
You get a call, right? You get? I think it's yeah, it's honestly, too, because you're also robbing yourself of really cool tricks that you could be doing. Because there have been so many times I've seen someone do something. Or I've seen somebody, I've seen somebody do something like, I've watched some, I've watched someone do something in a write, whether it be production, whether it be a lyric, whether it be a melody thing, and I'm like, Oh, that is really good. I'm doing that for like the next 20 songs. That's really cool. My well of ideas and skills got better just because I was in the room with them, and watch them do the thing that they were really good at that I could be like, Oh, that's really cool. I'm going to add that in. And also to they helped me with language to understand things like Laney was really good at explaining what she was like, I was like, let's do the part that's static. And I'm just like, statues, rapid fire. And you know, and then you get and I was oh, and then just that whole, that whole language of top lining helped me and I feel like vice versa, when it comes to production, I'm happy to help someone understand things that are that they can communicate ideas more effectively. So it's like we kind of share those skill sets in that language to help the other person out in other co writes that we have nothing to do with. But then they suddenly have language to go in for other things, which I think is good.

Heather Taylor 52:43
That answered the next question, Mike, it was how do I effectively communicate my ideas during a cold? Right? That was perfect. So do you have any other thoughts about that? Like, how do you how do you effectively communicate, I think, and one of the things is like keep on learning, keep on learning the language around songwriting, and keep on learning different methods.

Mike Meiers 53:02
What I love about all all of the people that I co write with, they all do some sort of better education and advanced education continually. There's no stop of like, why did this and so that's good. Keep learning kids. And so they're in courses they're reading, we're geeking out about like, oh, did you read this? Oh, that's really good. I was listening to this. Oh, that's really good, too. Are you going to this workshop, like how there was here in Nashville, for this one. And so it's like that, that sort of I because I also feed off of that energy of people that are really like, trying to better what they're doing. They're taking that course they're going to that conference, they're doing this thing that I'm Oh, that's cool. That motivates me to not get complacent and be like, you know, I was in a punk band in 2009, we were in the neon days of, you know, my dad tell you about the time we are on the work tours, it was pretty sweet. We were in the catering area. And then I was in a band and then the band died. And it's it's none of like, experience. I'm not writing off of that, that one time or that one thing or that, but I'm constantly like, I've been reading this new book I have it on it's really cool. I'm taking this new court. It's really exciting. They're all doing some sort of advancement, but the best way of communication, I think is just simplifying it. Can you explain if you're trying to explain an idea of why this matters? give it context. So if, you know, if you're not you know, let's say you're explaining why you need to lesson the lyrics in the chorus to oh, you know, you're the melody person, but they're the lyricist. And you explain what Listen, it's because like in the verses we have lots of you know, there's rapid fire lots of them. The listener needs a break in I can break melodically and I can like actually arc the melody up, which is great and it's going to create contrast between the two. So to me if you can just explain why people are more more likely to find that ground of like, oh, okay, now I get it, instead of being frustrated, sometimes you may have to even simplify it even more. And that's okay. But just explaining your idea or using an analogy, regardless of how silly if you think it is, like, if you feel a co-writes not going away, and you say something like, I feel like, you know, it's also on me too, because I feel like, nobody's been steering the ship, we're kind of just going around in circles. So, you know, I don't mean to be done. But one of us has to take control this. So what do you think? Cool. Now you've created using an analogy, a little bit of a dialogue. And don't be afraid to simplify. And, you know, if you're gonna start to use technical terms, like, I never say anything about dBs, or just like, Yo, I'm gonna take the, I'm just gonna be like, I'm gonna make this more watery. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's more what? Like, just say things that like, don't assume they know your language. So just like simplify, super simple.

Heather Taylor 55:58
I like that. And then it doesn't make them feel like if you are that, like, you're on a different, totally different level or something. It's like, oh, now I need to be like, even better than I am. Because they obviously have so much experience and all that stuff. So yeah, that's another point of making it a little bit more friendly and loose.

Mike Meiers 56:14
So like, if I know they have a musical background, cool. I will use chord number progressions and be like, yeah, we're doing like a three. But if they don't, I'm not going to sit there to tout, like, I know that that's a 643. Or then 242. It sounds like I'm just saying area codes. Because that's what it sounds like to them. They're like, What the hell is he talking about? Yeah, so it's like, don't use that as a position of inferior inferior. Yeah, always try to bring it to a level that they can understand. Because if you can bring people into a level that they understand, they get your vision, they get what you're trying to do. It's always one, it's just this inferior, inferior complex, or you're the ego creeps in that that's where there's a lot of separation writing, and that doesn't do anyone that doesn't help them. And that doesn't help you and your reputation.

Heather Taylor 57:06
What do you do? What do you do when you find yourself going into a co write and you are feeling like that, especially for beginners? Like, oh, man, I am inferior, quote, unquote, in this, how do you stop that? How do you stop yourself from if like, you can't go, you're about to go into CO write, and you're feeling like that? Do you have any advice for people? If you've

Mike Meiers 57:26
done the prep work? It's okay. You prepped, you prepped, if you did those steps of like, cool, I'd prep the zoom. Like, I got the I got the Google doc open, we talked about some of the ideas, you're just feeling that. But you've done that the prepping is there as a little cushion, because it's a little extra, like boost of like, cool. You prep, there are lots of people going in right now cold that you chose to prepare. The other thing I would say is, you have to start somewhere. If you're thinking I'm going to wait and accumulate some knowledge, I'm gonna wait. I'm going to wait and do this. I'm going to wait and do that. I'm going to wait and do this. You're going to always look for an excuse. If you go like, if you go, Well, this is how I do it. This is how I this is, you know, I don't like to do they

Heather Taylor 58:17
overcompensate with that. If don't overcompensate, if you've

Mike Meiers 58:21
looked at if you've maybe had a few rights to and so maybe this now I'm kind of steer in another direction. But like, if you've prepped enough, yeah, you realize that's just the voice of just that. It'll always be there. But realize you've done the work to prep for it. It's okay, just go in there knowing you did. And there's lots of people that haven't. So it's like you're one step ahead. If you're someone that's had lots of rights, and it hasn't produced a song hasn't produced anything. What I would do sincerely is stop and think about okay, so where was the breakdown? Because usually when you're pointing around at other people, that's that while it's there, they haven't, I find that and you realize you're using a lot of that language. This is where I'm like, Okay, I think it's a huge thing right now, maybe you need to be a little bit more flexible in how you create, you probably are overcomplicating the process a little bit. And people are really kind and they don't want to tell you that

Heather Taylor 59:26
that could be really tricky to humble yourself like that. And to then get get back up again and try again. You know, it's like, just because like something didn't go well, doesn't mean that you have to give up. You just have to keep on learning and keep on going and you're going to be even more liked, because you're like, Oh, alright, I have room to grow. Or

Mike Meiers 59:47
I think yeah, if you can, if you can realize that that's a huge growth spurt. That's a huge of like, quieting me and be like, You know what it was me? You know, what I would probably do is go back to those co writers Be like, Hey, listen, I just want to say, I'm sorry. I love to write with you again. But I looked at you know what, that was all. That was me. That was That was my bad.

Heather Taylor 1:00:10
Wow. Yeah, that would be that's really sweet shipbuilding.

Mike Meiers 1:00:14
That is be it is I think that's a huge trust thing. And in a co re relationship when someone says that because they're like, wow, wow, they said that, like, they really mean, that's huge. because not a lot of people stop and go like I was wrong. Like, I was, like, that's crazy. I can't believe I did that. Some people are just so hardheaded that they just don't want to admit that even when they know it. And so they just kind of move along. And when they see that person, there's just that awkward moment. But think of how much you could. But this is where I would suggest to do that. Because people talk.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:50
Yeah, we'll talk.

Mike Meiers 1:00:53
And even if you don't write with them, again, just kind of like touching base and be like, hey, you know, I just want to say like, you're awesome. What do you do? And I feel like, I had a lot of learning. And I realized, like, how I handled certain situations was not good. That's huge. Because then when your name comes up, and that person goes like, you know what it was? It was? Yeah, they were, they're really good. You know, I really think they're, because that's a sign of battering. And I think that's a big thing, too, because people talk,

Heather Taylor 1:01:25
people talk for good or bad. And that's why people are scared about CO writing and stuff. But like, I feel like we have touched on a lot of different things, where it's like, okay, you might get in this situation. But if that happens, then you can pivot like this. So it is a lot of like being like water and like being very, it is a very flexible,

Mike Meiers 1:01:46
you. It is a lot of that because if you do the same to someone in the sense of giving them that space, and that, that ease of like, Hey, it's okay. It is reciprocated, good co rights and good caring relationships. It's reciprocated, because yeah, they're days you're gonna be on fire and days that you feel like you're sitting there with like two sticks trying to be like, but then meanwhile, they got like the Zippo lighter, and they're like, it's all good. I got that. And then you're like, because there have been songs I've gotten placed that I look at it. I'm like, What did I actually do in this one? I think I did, like, maybe a little bit of a melody or just an idea. But it was like that one I just didn't, you know, that wasn't a day that I was hitting them out of the park. But then vice versa. There have been ones in place where I was like, Yeah, I carried a good amount of that. But I'm not like and the scorecard is Mike Curie shit. Yeah. You all need this one. Right? That's not how it works.

Heather Taylor 1:02:43
321 Yeah, go you do it now. That's awesome. I feel like those were the really good questions that I that I that I liked. Those, those were the questions that

Mike Meiers 1:02:57
I liked. I feel like those those those went, it was a good spectrum of whether you're beginner. So if you're still someone listening is like this is all good. And I understand this. But what what are like three things I can do right now? Number one, what are you going to offer? If somebody asked you to call right? What would be the thing that you're going to say? Number two? Can you pair that with anything? So if you're someone that's melody, could you do that with guitar? The reason I talk so much about guitar and why it's important for songwriting is because there's always a need for it. There's a need for people to communicate effectively with their guitar. You can always do melody and lyric, I think those are great. But there's that's a huge, sometimes the best role to fill in current is like where's the most need. And to me, it's always been like, if you can communicate with your guitar, effectively, you find different ways of taking one chord progression, being able to, you know, paint different emotions and fields with it. If you can do that, effectively, the door will always open and it will never close. Ever. So yes, think about your your strength, can you pair it with something, and also to just be calm? Those are three things you can do right now. And right there, if you work on those three, not only will you find people that you match with, but people will also be like, Oh, you're also really good. Like they'll start, you know, good people attract good people. They're kind of connected. That's, those are my thoughts. Yeah, those

Heather Taylor 1:04:32
are really good thoughts. And if anybody has any other questions about CO writing, please leave a comment. And we can answer that in another podcast or even on social media.

Mike Meiers 1:04:43
Yeah, I'd love to do another one of these. We can do another kind of like q&a kind of things, because I think this was fun.

Heather Taylor 1:04:49
Yeah, this was really fun. Thanks for having me on the podcast, Mike.

Mike Meiers 1:04:52
Thanks for asking questions, Heather. You're welcome. And that does it for this week's episode. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, and any of our previous episodes and you haven't given us a review on Apple podcasts yet, can you just take a moment right now scroll down, give us a five star review and talk about your favorite episode and share an episode with a songwriting friend that you think would benefit from the things that we've shared. And if you have thank you so much, you're the reason why we keep on putting out amazing episodes like this one, and the one you'll hear next week. And like all of them, they were edited, produced by Chris Mathias on Mike Myers. Thanks for listening

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