Episode 74: In Defense of Pop

guitar indie pop listening music overnight success people playlist pop production songs songwriter vibe Mar 01, 2023

Episode 74: In Defense of Pop 

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Lainey Dionne and I chat about the misconceptions of pop and why it gets such a bad rap. The truth is pop has heavily influenced music from the dawn of Western music to now, and it’s constantly evolving. There’s so much competition out there for songs to get heard now, but Mike and Lainey argue what gets through is still authenticity and good song. 

Our guess is if you have a blanket statement like “pop sucks”, you’re not listening to the broad spectrum of what pop is today. Mike grew up only listening to punk music but once he became a teacher and started listening to music in a new way, his mind changed. Lainey and Mike challenge you to find elements of the modern songwriting world and bring it into your own writing. 

Leave a comment - are you for pop or still against it?

See the full transcript below...

Mike Meiers 0:00
Hey, I'm Mike Meiers and this is the song rank for guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence and turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process, and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career that you love.

Lainey Dionne 7:54
if those songs came out, back in the 60s, I think they'd be hit back then. You know, I think that there's crossover there too. Yeah. This poetic pop music that's out. And I don't think people realize,

Mike Meiers 0:22
Caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Hey, what's up Mike Myers here with the song rank for guitar podcast episode number 74. In defense of pop, now it's easy to write off pop. I think a lot of people do because they don't take the time to understand a lot of the nuances and how the landscape of pop music has changed. In this episode, songwriting for guitar coach Laney Dion and I, we kind of dive into a lot of the misconceptions. Plus, we're going to talk about something really cool that we're offering. So this is a jam packed episode. We're just gonna dive into it episode number 74. In defense of pop

I feel pop gets such a bad rap because people think either it's like it's completely useless. They have all these preconceived notions about like, Oh, it's just drop stuff on the radio. It's like radio, Dizzy stuff, it's just off on meanwhile, it's like, pretty much pop music has influenced music from like, the dawn of western sector now. It's just constantly evolving. And whether you like it or not it, it's super important. It's heavily important.

Lainey Dionne 1:46
Yeah, I was just thinking the other day how you can't just say I hate on air, or whatever. You want to not listen to it just because it's new. I mean, like it's right in the world right now.

Mike Meiers 1:58
I mean, because we could go back to, you know, especially right now, I think people hate on pop music, you know, it's so short. It's ridiculous. And it's like, it's so you know, like, you have to do this. And you have to get to the chorus and blah, blah, blah, there are all these restrictions. But it's like, it's crazy. You could go back into the early 60s, and even the 50s, I could pull up like a Buddy Holly album. And all of his songs are like two minutes, two minutes, two minutes, two minutes. Like, it's this isn't new, like this idea of like keeping it short, concise, to the point memorable courses. The Beatles were doing that there's a whole album of Beatle singles that were pretty much super short to the point, hokey choruses.

Lainey Dionne 2:44
And even today, when you hear the songs that were longer, you're hearing the radio edits on the radio, they have the shorter version played for the masses.

Mike Meiers 2:53
But why do you think people have that? Do you think it's easier to just like, blanket something like it's pop, it's awful. And just like, without actually taking time to understand it and dive into it?

Lainey Dionne 3:05
Yeah, I was gonna say, I think the people that are that are saying that, Oh, it's this new stuff is on bubble gum, and it's all stupid. And it's not well written. I don't think they're actually listening to the broad spectrum of what pop is today. Because underneath the blanket, or the umbrella of pop, you know, you have indie pop, you have folk pop, you have all of these different stylistic choices within that. And they all have their little elements. I mean, music is constantly growing on top of itself. You know, you wouldn't have some of these artists without Led Zeppelin or Elvis Presley, you wouldn't have the artists today without the people that came before it. So you can always hear elements of that style of music in newer stuff. You just got to listen for it. People that are listening to metal might not necessarily like pop, but it's it's two completely different styles. You gotta give it a chance at least you got to listen to it to understand that it's just because it's not war style doesn't mean it's bad music because what I'm trying to say

Mike Meiers 4:04
the you know what, I think I realized that because I was very punk growing up. And so you know, when your punk is like, you only listen to this and it's just like, Fuck the mainstream and it's just, like, complete so hard. Yeah, it's just like, but then I started teaching. And obviously I couldn't if somebody brought in the song, I couldn't be like, hey, that shit. I'm not teaching it. I instead it was like, oh, yeah, totally. And I was listening to all this music that was oh, it's actually not that. Like, I remember being like, oh, Neon Trees, but whatever. And then I started to listen, I'm like, it's actually really good. Like starting to dissect the structure of it. And the melodic structure of it, the production elements. I was like, suddenly like, Oh, my God, this is actually really, this is really good.

Lainey Dionne 4:49
Yeah, I think it's easy to get like that mentality that was going around that everybody hated Nickelback, why Nickelback is great. Songs like It's just popular to hate pop music sometimes when when you think that your music is better,

Mike Meiers 5:05
but you know, it's interesting. I saw there was a, I think it was American songwriter, they posted something with Nickelback. And all the comments below were people being like, just like unsubscribed, unsubscribed, I can't believe you're doing this. I can't believe like, and that's another thing too. It's, I noticed people that are the loudest sometimes about hating something. aren't doing the thing, like the ones that are just like outright complaining about something. Zero contribution to music whatsoever.

Lainey Dionne 5:37
Yeah, yeah. I noticed when when Taylor Swift's album came out, everybody was like, well, people that didn't like Taylor Swift. Were like, Oh, our lyricism, it's terrible, or we accept, she never writes about anything, that's good. And all of her lines suck, like shake it off, players gonna play, play play. Like I get that that is a style of pop music. But if you listen to her new album, it has some of the greatest lyrics I've ever heard that can compete with anybody from the 60s or 70s. Their lyrics are amazing. So I think people aren't really listening to it.

Mike Meiers 6:07
I mean, they're I think there's sometimes it's could it also be nostalgia that people just remember a certain time in a place where it's like, it hit them? Because we were doing a cover recently of what was it was rem and losing my religion, or not really good. Like, we're sitting there. And we were just writing it out. And then it was like, so what's the lyric? I said, Oh, the ending we have to track and she was like, Cool. What's the line? I was like, cry, try, fly, cry. But she was like, stop. It's not. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm serious. It's just, I think sometimes we have this nostalgia of when we grew up, maybe it's because like, our hormones are a certain way. And like, everything is like, impactful. And we're like, this music means so much to me, as like, Okay, that's cool. That's important. But music can also change. It can evolve, it can be something different. It doesn't mean that it's shit. It just means you may not necessarily like it. It may not mean something to you, but there's a huge percentage of people that are currently loving this thing. Yeah, I

Lainey Dionne 7:19
think some of the stuff that came out back then, if it came up today, it wouldn't have hit. Like, if you think about lyricism, like we all live in a yellow submarine. You know, the Beatles are great, they're great. But you can't you can't really say that everything that came out then was

Mike Meiers 7:40
gold, prolific, and just like the most amazing thing ever.

Lainey Dionne 7:44
Yeah. And I think that's some songs that if, today, like some songs off of Taylor Swift's album, or other artists, like listening to Calpine,

Mike Meiers 8:07
and I was thinking about this, too, you know, you mentioned you know, there are songs that came out back then that now they probably wouldn't survive. I think it's too there's a lot more competition and exposure for so much music, that the pool is like, yeah, that's where it is competitive, where I think the pool was so much smaller. That yes, there was a big classic rock band that was very popular, but had social media gotten the you know, was created, then maybe that band that was seven streets down would have gotten the exposure, and might have been bigger than that actual band. That's what I think is kind of crazy. If we flip all these different, like, what if

Lainey Dionne 8:50
Yeah, then was this more of a popularity contest by word of mouth now, you just didn't get a tick tock star to

Mike Meiers 9:00
I think the level of competition and the quality of songs have to be it's, it's tough. And you have to be constantly just putting yourself out there, writing new things, exposing yourself to new things and growing your your regardless if you're doing production song, right, pushing yourself to limits, listening to new things kind of doing a lot of out of the box shit. Because there's just so much

Lainey Dionne 9:23
Yeah, and just to stay current. It's hard because you have to get your songs in the algorithm. And if your songs don't get in the algorithm, you're not going to make it like right now. Record record labels are looking at your followers see everything that's in the background, whereas back then it was all word of mouth where you were touring next and everything so you have to get your songs to a certain caliber to even be seen.

Mike Meiers 9:52
And I don't think people realize that it that it's building something as well that if you're going to get noticed you have to build Something and a lot of these, that when they see pop, they think they've been discovered overnight and just plucked from stardom because I think that's the myth of almost like old school mentality of somebody, you know, the a&r guy being like, you, you know, I like your style. I'm giving you a fat record. It's not that it's developed. I think people that right off Taylor Swift forget that. She came to Nashville. And she worked her butt off in like so many different studios, and writing and writing and writing and writing and writing and writing and writing and writing and writing until things started to move in the dirt. Yeah,

Lainey Dionne 10:35
I think the misconception with that is because you can technically get famous overnight by something like tick tock like you can go viral overnight. But your song that's not good enough is not going to go viral overnight, the work comes in before that overnight start and takes place, you know, you have to put in the time to craft the songs that are going to make it find the studios that are going to have the production that's going to make it all that happens behind the scenes before the overnight stardom. Know what I'm saying?

Mike Meiers 11:06
Yeah, and it's seeking, I feel like, you know, going to others that are doing it, learning it, you know, I've been reading this book, I forget, I have to pull it up, hold on. And Chris can edit all this time delay stuff, which is great, because it was out show your work. And what it talks about is this myth, that that the the lone creative genius, that is just there, but what you're gonna find behind the creative genius is a slew of collaborators and people that have informed their process, their system that has developed them, to allow them to be at that heightened position. So that when people write off like, oh, you know, they're just, you know, they're just sellouts and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they were just, they're just being signed overnight. And now they're actually really good. And they've worked with people they've trained, they've developed their craft, they've stayed patient with it. They've sought the advice, even when it's the advice that they don't want to hear. Yeah, they can it and I think sometimes people that kind of want it to be that general just like, Oh, it's you know, it's like this, they haven't sought the advice. They don't like the advice to that they're getting because they, they want to reject it, and they just want to live in their little world of, I guess, belief that this is how it is.

Lainey Dionne 12:26
Yeah, I definitely think that like rejection definitely shapes you. Because I don't say like, be completely authentic to you, 100%. But if somebody's telling, if you're getting nose constantly, I don't want to sign you to the library, I don't want to place your song, none of this is really working, you have to change something, you have to be authentic to you. You have to change something in order to get that success if you're just going to keep doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results.

Mike Meiers 12:57
I was gonna say that's the definition of insanity. But it's it is it's people kind of like sticking their fingers in their ears going La la la la la la. Not gonna listen, which is like, why would you do that? Why can't you just take the advice of someone, especially if you're hearing the same, that's a good sign to when you were just like a sign if you're hearing the exact same thing. That to me is like, oh, I should take notice of that. But I feel like you know, things that are, you know, that are on Spotify, because, you know, yes, the radio, but I look at playlists I look at like, like, if I go to like, you know, country, it's new boots on Spotify, or it's like indie pop playlists, like what are the new things added? It's a criteria because they put the time into it the craft, the song, the production, the whole nine yards, they're not throwing up everything. It's a select. It's, that's why it's a curated playlist curate and not in every one playlist, but a curated playlist. And it's super

Lainey Dionne 13:56
hard to get into those Spotify editorial playlists, it's it's it's insane. Fresh finds if for the people that are looking for pop, they're not certain about the whole genre, I would suggest fresh finds or listening to the indie pop editorial playlist on Spotify because that is I don't wanna say like it's more authentic but it has more acoustic elements to it that give it that more real instrument vibe rather than the bubble gum pop Britney Spears Katy Perry vibe, which all of it is good. I'd like to say well just like to say but for those that are kind of against pop, I feel like that's the gateway drug into

Mike Meiers 14:34
you know what I think it is because sometimes when people do that blanket they don't realize that there's so many of these sub genres of pop and so many different sub genres that aren't just like synthetic and just like since since since but it's like no you can like you mentioned Lizzie McAlpine when I like first started listening McAlpine, I was like holy shit. I was like, This is really good. Like the instrumentation Should is amazing. I love the guitar tones like I geeked out at first, I geeked out on the guitar tones because they were like, they were clear, but they were also like, the there was a little bit of breaking in it, I could hear a little bit of overdrive, but it was like vibey. And I was like, I really love that. So that was the initial thing that drew me in. But that means whoever was producing that and shaping that gave a lot of thought to the textures to support her story so that that's where I have like the appreciation starts. And that's where it just goes to another level.

Lainey Dionne 15:35
Yeah, I'd say yeah, I'd say for those that are that are trying to get into the indie pop genre and was McAlpine especially, it's more of a storytelling part, which I think people think pop lacks the storytelling aspect of it the personal emotional aspect of it, and that's totally not true. So Lizzie McAlpine is a great start for that.

Mike Meiers 15:57
It's interesting, because I was like, let's take like classic rock lyrics. And if we were to put them to like modern day pop singers, how much people would reject that? I think imagine Britney Spears covering American Pie. Like it's you're saying like, bye bye, Miss American Pie. And she was and people just be like, Ah, ha, that is just like, but imagine Don McLean suddenly doing like, Hit Me Baby One More Time. I know but it's just like it's interesting as those were flip flop how we

Lainey Dionne 16:26
can you can make Me Baby One More Time. sounds super funky, though. That'd be cool.

Mike Meiers 16:29
I know. I'm just like, I think he could just do it. But it just goes to show that I don't think people have an issue with it. It's just, it's something new.

Lainey Dionne 16:40
You're totally flipping that would be really insane to do. Like, let's like, what's that? That's not highway to hell. Who is that by?

Mike Meiers 16:48
Oh, that's ACDC.

Lainey Dionne 16:51
Yeah, if you tried to, I don't, that would not work.

Mike Meiers 16:55
Fergie doing Highway to Hell. I mean, let's just choose something bizarre.

Hey, it's Mike. And I wanted to jump in the middle of this episode with Lenny and myself to segue to Laney and myself. But we're actually going to dive in and talk about this six week live course that her and I are going to be doing which kicks off this Saturday. That's right, as you're listening to this podcast, when it's coming out, starting this Saturday, we're going to be doing a six week live course. That's huge. And we want to talk a little bit about what's involved. So we're jumping in the middle of our conversation for another conversation about the six week guitar essentials experience that we're doing, which is essentially the reason we're doing this. And I found this sort of like statistic wild to me out of five to 10%. Now I think it was five to 15% of people complete courses that they buy. Wow. I know like, right. It's, it is so so I'm curious. So I'm in the small minority, because any class that I bought, I've like gone through and I've like finished, like I took music licensing courses, production courses, a few like, like top lining course, like it just really I went through them. And it was just like, why? Well, because, you know, I did have someone I had mentors, I had coaches that were guiding me and I would tell them what I'm working on. But I think it's because people when they get something are so intimidated with the prospect of what's in it. The idea of where to start is very, very crippling, there's very little sometimes accountability

Lainey Dionne 18:40
to Yeah, you got to be willing to put in the work.

Mike Meiers 18:44
You have to be willing. And if you know that you're going to be meeting someone, and you're going to be talking and you have the opportunity to and I think this is maybe sometimes the downside of an online course is you can ask a question. Like, maybe I should but but like, what we're doing right now, if I went on, I was like, oh shit, like, what the hell about Dutta? Or what does this mean? And then you can be like, Oh, and if that one answer, then is what I need to be like, Oh, I was overthinking it, and allows me to then go through and continue on. Because just that one little answer, but just a direct answer from someone was the thing to help me go to a next level. I think that's huge.

Lainey Dionne 19:26
Yeah, I would have loved to have a personal one on one because I have I have my music production courses I had to do at Berklee Online, and I didn't get that. It's really hard to stay motivated to keep putting in the work. And this is this is great. The fact that that people can have a personal connection to ask whatever they want.

Mike Meiers 19:44
Yeah. And they can come to us like and what we're doing with guitar essentials experiences. Yes, you have all this pre recorded material, but then we have a dedicated time that we're meeting weekly for six weeks in a row where you can ask questions, you can ask questions about your songwriting process. As we're diving in, you can pick my head about like, Well, should I always use this voicing when it comes to this? You can, you can essentially ask the things as you're going along. So as you're starting to take the process, you can start taking notes in these lives and see what other people are asking. You can start taking, like writing down other people's questions, because I find like, just being in a group, when people are asking, a lot of people ask a question, I'm like, oh, that's, I didn't even think of that. And I write down the answer. And it's just like, it's such a good way to have accountability. So that not only are you going to see through the entire process, but you know, if you go through that, you're going to be guided by people that have done something with it. That's the other thing. It's not just somebody that taught, we don't just talk about like, songwriting, and just like, oh, that's, that's kind of cool. It's like, this is the thing that we do the thing that, like, we get checks for, and then we, we cash in money, and this is how we make our income of what we do. And not everybody gets that. They get someone that talks about the thing. But they haven't done it for a while.

Lainey Dionne 21:05
Yeah, yeah, we're both very hands on. So it's

Mike Meiers 21:08
just like to have that. And you know, that if you go through this process, and obviously, the question is gonna be yes. If you feel right now, you're not in a place where you want to be. If you went through an entire process for six weeks, that's guide modules on how to better utilize your guitar for songwriting. To understand modern songs structure, plus, you get to ask questions six weeks in a row, would you be better off? Yeah, it's just like, it's one of those like, answers where it's like, yes, the obvious question is yes. And like, as this podcast is coming out, there's only two days left to join. So it's like, as you're listening to this, and you're like, Yeah, this sounds really good. In the description of the podcast, we have the direct link where you can sign up, because that's it, it's just gonna be, you know, you can get our course other times, but there's no, there's not a live element to this. But it's like, this is the one where we're like, Hey, here's a live element, because there's a need for it. And if we can help you get on that path, so that you are further along than you are right now that you actually take in the information more and actually apply it. And plus, you get to ask questions. And plus you feel like that's the thing that you need, then click the link and you know, jump in, that's basically the thing. But also, to just your perspective, is fantastic. Because I always just have the producer kind of like I write songs perspective. That's it, you have the artists perspective, because that's what you are. I'm not I've just been out of that game for so long. Other than just like writing with an artist, I'm not thinking in that, that live mindset. So I love that your answers and your replies come from that space, that I just, I'm just not. Whenever somebody asked me, Hey, do you want to play live? I'm like, no, like, no, no, I'd rather just be here and just work on stuff. Because that's where I know that's kind of like, where I work the best.

Lainey Dionne 23:03
Yeah, it's really important for me to have the full spectrum of artistry to be able to do everything DIY. So that's, that's where I'm at.

Mike Meiers 23:13
I love that. And so that's what you're getting in this live experience, which is so good. So two days left, if you're listening to this podcast, so it's just just click that link in the description. And then I think we're going back to the chat of you and me. So I guess, send it back to us talking. So guess what the link to join is in the description. And guess what, this the only time we're going to be doing it this year. So it's not like we're going to pop up like five more times throughout the year and be surprised we're doing it again. No, this is the only time we're doing it. So if you're someone who wants to take it to the next level, who wants to take their songwriting seriously, who wants to improve their guitar skills, their top lining skills, wants to learn from people that are actively making a living from licensing and music. This is something that you need to jump in. Because we're going to be fully present. We're going to be answering your questions and guiding you through the course. So the link is in the description. Remember, it kicks off this Saturday. And guess what? That's going to be it for the rest of this year. So don't wait, stop putting off this. This. I'll wait until things get better. Or maybe I have more time. No. Those that want to see change and want to go to the next level realize that they have to start now

I think we have to step out of kind of that nostalgia bubble. And realize like we've got to try some new stuff every once in a while.

Lainey Dionne 24:36
Yeah, it was a time it had his time. And music now it's gonna have its time in 20 years as well.

Mike Meiers 24:42
Exactly the things we're talking about. Now, people are gonna be like, Yeah, remember Lizzie Maga? That's cool. That's how they're gonna talk about you know, how they talk about mama casters, you know, like, you know, Joni Mitchell or it's just, there was a time and a place something else came. And guess what, then that's going to have its time its place the new can be something else. Music always moves forward.

Lainey Dionne 25:02
But which brings me to sync? Yeah, because if you were to do like let's say you're super into like Carole King, or the carpenters right, and you do a song that's exactly sounding like that, that sounds dated like that. A sink person is more likely going to pick them since they were popular during the time you know, they're going to want they're going to want Stairway to Heaven, they're not gonna want to knock off Stairway to Heaven. They're gonna want to put that in their film so that people recognize it and know it. Whereas now with with ads and stuff like that, you can have elements is like sometimes I get briefs that are like, hey have like a 70s undertone or have like a disco vibe or you can get that but it needs to sound original to now you need to be able to tell this is a new song. This is a great for this commercial, right?

Mike Meiers 25:50
I always feel like they call it like vintage undertones. Yes. undertone, undertones being the main word. It's like an accent and not meant to be the front and center main. Like, I think Miley Cyrus has flowers. Totally. Yeah, a super vintage undertone vibe to it. Because the bass in the drums, like I learned the bass part because I was just like, This is so good. It's so fresh. It supports the song. But when I think of it, boom, boom. Like if we think of like 70s and disco, I think of that. I think of like, a great baseline. I think of like a small Gretsch kit that's playing in the background. That's like holding down that main section. I think flowers was wonderful like that. When I first heard it. I was like shit. This is like really good.

Lainey Dionne 26:38
Yeah, but it sounds modern. Or like, as it as it was hairstyles. As he was telling me that song is not to be gone Me. Me. It's literally practically it 100% Sounds like you could tell that that's something that was produced today. It still has the elements of Take on me. Aha. But you could tell us from today,

Mike Meiers 27:03
everything kind of nods to something in nods whether it be like it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. Greta Van Fleet is very much like Led Zeppelin that's like to me is like a super, it's just

Lainey Dionne 27:19
like a knock off. That's

Mike Meiers 27:22
it. So it's it led airplane. I don't know, whatever we want to call it. It's just like it's it's something that is similar to it. It has those undertones to it. If we look at a lot of like pop punk that's coming out now. It's a nod. Yeah, total, like and Travis Barker doesn't care. He's like, cool. Here's like, I'll play on it. I'll produce it. I love this. Because he's totally all for that. So it's like we're seeing that 90s revival, because people that were born in the 90s that that's what that nostalgia is coming back. And now that's it's bleeding into their songs.

Lainey Dionne 28:02

Mike Meiers 28:03
that's great to me, because I'm just like, cool, I can get down with it. I, I'm all for it. But everything has its time in its place. And music evolves. And I think you can just appreciate music as it's changed and understand that everything is a nod to something. And it's not less than greater than, you don't have to necessarily buy a front row ticket to it. But you can also be like, Okay, this is catchy. This is really, yeah. And it was well produced.

Lainey Dionne 28:31
Yeah. And I would like to say that music is 100% subjective, you know, you might get a million nose. And you might think you're the greatest and your friends might think you're the greatest. And you know, you might think that that's the best song. But if your goal as a songwriter is to become successful and make money in the field, you're going to have to appeal to the masses, you want most of the people to think that your song is great. So even though you think it's great, they would put that one in the hard drive and go on to the next one.

Mike Meiers 29:07
I think it's what you're talking about is like you're at this, like crossroads for some people where it's like, is this going to be the hobby you dabble in, and that the results don't matter? Like it's just like if you enjoy it, that is the marker. But if you're starting to say things like I want to quote unquote, monetize this, I want to make this part I want to make this a substantial income. I want to you know, have artists cut my songs, I want to attract artists, cool. You better make sure that you're, you know, they're the right artists and that you're writing what they want to say because you could have an artist that's like cool, I'll work with you. But if you're writing in the wrong voice, and you're not paying attention to what they want, and you're like, Hey, sing this. Hey, hey Lanie here's what it is. You are a cocktail waitress As a singer, that's not gonna happen. Like, you're gonna be like that is not true to me whatsoever. 100% 100% Because it's just weird. That's not what it is. And that's why, if you're going to monetize, you're going to have to acknowledge this. Yeah. Yeah.

Lainey Dionne 30:18
Like I said, you might think that's good, but you want everyone to think it's good. And that's why paps important?

Mike Meiers 30:26
It is, this is why it matters. And if you if you want to make money, you have to acknowledge that yeah, this does matter. But you also have to broaden your definition of what pop is, you can't just have this one side of you. And just like it's not radio, Disney. It's not people that are just plucked that are 18 years old, that gets signed then develop, but it's like, there's all these sub genres and they're all little bit different. Like, I love the aces. To me, they're indiepop they're like, really good any pop like amazing guitar hooks. But that's probably not what everybody thinks about when they think of pop they think, oh, you know, like Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, but even Miley Cyrus, I feel like has come into her own since the beginning. Because I feel the ones that end up doing well evolve change and they're still there

Lainey Dionne 31:20
even like another genre to break people into the gateway drug of pop. Would be a sea of contemporary Adele. Sam Smith will old Sam Smith on Adele Coldplay, Ed Sheeran, this is appealing to a king year olds as well as 40 5060 year olds, you know, you hear you hear Adele songs you hear Ed Sheeran songs at weddings, you know, like, Adult Contemporary is also a great umbrella pop category to gateway drugs.

Mike Meiers 31:53
Yeah, I think for people to like, I would even throw like Jack Johnson or just like a like a Jason morass where it's like, you want some of the elements of like somebody playing an instrument, but you also you want to, it's memorable. It's hooky, those are the things. Oh, hooky. But I think for people to branch out and just be open is the big thing. Because I think if you're open to this, especially if you're a songwriter, or inspire, aspiring songwriter, you have to have that open mind, because that's also going to flood into your co writes, how you view production, how you collaborate with people, because I only collaborate with people that have a very open mind about music. I rarely work. I don't work with anyone that's like, this sucks. Like I remember, you know, one of my best collaborations Josh, we were talking about, like when Fitz and the Tantrums handclap came out. Just like this is so good. Yeah, it's just like, but it's like his backstory. It's like the singer, what was he he was an engineer. He was like a producer. That was his back. That's what he did. And then he did a band. So it was just like, to me, it's like, I don't know, just pop, it's just grown so much to what people used to think. And if you're going to have success in this area, you gotta be open.

Lainey Dionne 33:20
Yeah, I will work with anybody. It's like, I hate this. I hate that. I can't do this. And if you're too judgmental, that doesn't, that doesn't like vibe for a, a nice, co right? I don't think most of the major players are going to want to

Mike Meiers 33:34
know. It's imagine if you were aware of I don't know, just like, you know, in the UN, maybe that's a bad example. But um, like, I was trying to think of something where you have to be negotiable. You have to be Yeah, it's, I think, especially for longevity. If you're thinking short term, you're probably not thinking about this. But if you're thinking about long term growth and music and staying relevant, I actually had somebody tell me once and he was like, he was one that really drilled active listening to me, and I was like, and he was like, this is I have to do this now. Because if I stop it, I become irrelevant. And I'm not going to be welcomed in the room. And I was just like, that makes sense. So it's just like, understand what's coming out and listening and just keep on expanding your view of music. Because that will always benefit you. That will never be something that's I feel like that hinders Creative Growth. That was very well said and seen.

And that does it for this week's episode. It was edited and produced by Chris values. I'm Mike Meiers. Thanks for listening.