Episode 72: Sync Licensing Myths

create genre licensing listen man music oversaturated producers production skills song songwriting sync tracks Feb 15, 2023

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Sync licensing has quickly become a buzz word in the music world and for good reason - you can make a living in it! Some people don’t even believe that, and end up missing out of a big source of income. There are so many myths about this field because it truly takes years to become an expert in sync licensing and is constantly evolving. 

There are too many people making uninformed decisions that veer people off course for years. Since we can’t always know what to pay attention to when starting out, industry sync experts Mike Meiers and Anthony Clint Jr. get together to dispel myths about this growing field so you can make informed decisions going forward. 

If one of the greatest skills in our lifetime is adaptability and discerning what’s true and false, this is the episode you’ve been waiting for.


Read the Transcription of this episode below...


Mike Meiers 0:00

Hey, I'm Mike Meiers. This is the song rank for guitar podcast which is geared to support songwriters and producers to gain confidence in turn pro. I bring on industry experts to help you improve and monetize your skills, Engage better in the writing process and build healthy habits to create a sustainable career. You love caffeinated, inspirational, conversational.

Hey, What's up friends Mike Myers here with the songwriting for guitar podcast episode number 72. Licensing this this episode, I'm super pumped to have my buddy Clint back on and we kind of dive into licensing myths. This is a world that we are constantly in and I get emails constantly. I get DMS, Clint gets DMS emails from people that are interested in getting into this world, whether it be Production Music, full songs, but they have this baggage of false beliefs, things that are not true about licensing that they're carrying around, that are also you know, informing how they're making decisions. So him and I come in and we just destroy these are these myths. But not only that, we want to give you some helpful hints on things you can start doing if you want to move in this direction. Because if you're still listening to this where episode 72 You know, I talk about licensing a lot. This is the thing that I do this is the thing Clint does. So we're gonna dive into things you shouldn't believe when it comes to licensing but some steps to kind of further or start to dive into this world of licensing. So here we go. Let's dive into it. Episode 72 licensing myths

I'm happy to have you back because you're a wealth of knowledge on beards, music license. Just all that did I started using that brand to and my beard feels so much smoother now do condition, man. Yeah. I didn't even think about hydrating my beard. I got the hydration spray. Yeah, no wonder it's dry. No wonder it's like, frizzy. And I didn't even think about, I'm using a plastic comb. And I got a wooden comb now and it's different. I also know it pulls less and it's getting. But we're not here to talk about beards, but your beard looks. It really does too. I will say yours is always super chiseled. They are on the line. It seems so precise.

Anthony Clint Jr. 2:29
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So I was a I was a barber like, well, like not an official Barber. But it was kind of like a side hustle. And in high school. So I used to cut here like, friends, cousins, my dad, my brother like so I used to cut here a lot. And then in college, I will cut a few friends here. So, you know, over the years, I kind of kind of got skillful with it. I guess so. Yeah. But did

Mike Meiers 2:55
yeah, that was when I saw your video. And it was like it was I'm glad. Not that I don't watch your videos. But that one I did not speed up. I didn't move. I just like watch. I think I went back to when I was at the store. I was at Target. I was like, Okay, what was it, then I was using it as a reference. By music licensing to I mean, you also do that it's not just beard related things. It's music. It's just not beer related things. But the one shirt that I love that you wear all the time as I make music, not excuses. And I was like, you know, when it comes to licensing and I feel maybe especially in the past couple, maybe two years, I've noticed more licensing things come up where it's like, maybe occasional courses that I have no idea what they're talking about. Or it's just like, I'm not sure what they've done. And a lot of people are now like songwriters are like, Ah, I should do sync, it's a buzzword that seems to be thrown around a lot more now where it's like sink, sink, sink, sink, but there's so many false things that they believe about licensing that they think are totally okay. And I wanted to get in to some of those with you because I had a few people that ask questions. And so I have this little questions below that, you know, I would love to give your take on it. But because the first thing people think you can't do sync for a living, you can't do licensing for a living. Yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute, you do licensing for a living?

Anthony Clint Jr. 4:18
Exactly. I still get that question. Like, like I show people the process. I show people what I do I show other producers how to do it and how to make money from it. And then they're like, well, like, can you actually make like decent money with this? Like, yeah, that's, that's why we do it. That's why, you know, we kind of, well at least me personally, I decided to take this lane versus some of the other lanes that you can take in music because, you know, it's something that you know, I feel like the amount of time that I put into it. I feel like it's it's a little more easy to to spend time creating something that I know has a higher chance of actually getting used and placed in something versus going the traditional route and trying to play something on, you know, one of the few big artists out there, that could really change your life in the form of, you know, income and royalties and things like that. So I feel like sync is like a direct source to, honestly, what makes up a lot of the major artists income, and major producers and songwriters and things like that, you know, so

Mike Meiers 5:36
I think when you when you mentioned that to the idea that you know, that the end result is going to be like, oh, there's, there's a specific reason of where I know, this will go, what it can be used, there's an end goal, when we're writing songs, and people are like, you know, producing software other people. At first, there's no, it's just like, you get the, the journey is, the end result isn't supposed to be just the song. That's only the beginning. Like, even when it's produced, it's done. where's it gonna go? Is it gonna be? So the idea that you have, did you also enjoy? Do you enjoy kind of like the, I don't want to say the the autonomy, of being able to just like, you know, there's a lot of variables that are in your control, in terms of how much you want to create, and like the style that you want to create? And, and how you want to organize your time as opposed to let me set up this right with so and so. And let me wait. And let me see. And let let's wait for a little because when you work with an artist, sometimes if they're doing an album, there's this long period of time. Yep. I feel like the Titanic lady. It's been 82 here was just like, Is it done yet? Where it's like with licensing and production me is like, cool, cool. Dun, dun, dun, you have a lot of control.

Anthony Clint Jr. 6:47
Yeah, I agree, dude, because if I'm working on a Production Music Album for a publisher, you know, for that first round, of course, they're gonna have their notes and revisions and things. But like, when I say it's done, or when I feel like it's done, then it's done, I just send it off, you know, there's not a lot of, you know, let me let 10 Other people listen to it on my team. And then two of these people think we should go in a different direction. Now you're reproducing the entire record and spending two more weeks on it, you know what I mean? So it's just like, there's a lot of time saved in that. And guess there's a ton of autonomy. And, you know, it's, I love it, because there's no pressure, you know, if you get a brief, you have the option to say, Yes, I have the time to work on it, or No, I have to skip this one and get in on the next one. So I love that,

Mike Meiers 7:35
I think to exactly that, that you have the ability to be like, Oh, I can, like, Oh, I'm looking at the brief. What's the turnaround time? Okay, yeah, I can do that. Or it's like, that's not today. And it's okay. It's not like, because, you know, there's going to be so many more flooding your inbox, right, purely because I think have to probably, when you got into licensing, there were certain realms of licensing, like, you know, there was there was Netflix, I'm not, we're not that old, where it was like Netflix wasn't existence. But now, there's so many more streaming service, it seems like every day, every week, every month, there's a new one that's coming out, and they're getting into a batch of new productions of new shows new stuff. So it's just like, there's so much opportunity and work because every, every month, every year, there's some new new streaming services, new shows everything created from the ground up that need music.

Anthony Clint Jr. 8:32
Yep. Exactly. The need is crazy to this. That's another question. I was like, is it oversaturated? Like, is it hard to get in?

Mike Meiers 8:42
Literally, one of them said, I hear it's oversaturated. And I'm looking at these notes. And I'm like, it's not it is not oversaturated at all.

Anthony Clint Jr. 8:50
Yeah, it because I'm like, if you just turn on a streaming service in scroll, brought like all of the all of those shows, documentaries, movies, animated series. What else they got on there like the video, they got video games with Apple TV. And Netflix, I think has video games now, like all of that stuff needs music. So, ya know, there's plenty of opportunity

Mike Meiers 9:15
now. Okay, so we know what's not oversaturated would you agree that what is oversaturated? Are people setting the bar low in licensing in terms of what they try to submit? Where they go, this is the throwaway song this because I got a question here that was asking, you know, I have an old album, can I have that set? And it's just like the fact that you started with that phrase, I have an old album means nothing has happened with it. So I'm wondering, Can I throw it at the wall hope it sticks and see if something places? Yeah, it's not to say that couldn't but like when it's like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel with that, that I feel that's really oversaturated of people pitching music that shouldn't be pitched.

Anthony Clint Jr. 9:58
Yes. I agree. And you know, I know, because we talked about, you know, your music shouldn't sit on your hard drive and things like that. And yet, like, that's true. You don't want your music to just sit on your hard drive. But some of this music has been sitting on drives for decades. And this is not it's not syncable I'm sorry. But, you know, sink is not like this trash bin to just throw all of the unused things.

Mike Meiers 10:27
Yeah, that's an Instagrammable clip right there. It's not a trash, but you're right. That is that's

Anthony Clint Jr. 10:31
so good. It's not a trash bin man. And honestly, over the years, looking back, man, like the quality of music that's being requested in sync has gone up, bro, like they want. I mean, the references are our top 40 The billboard charting songs, you know what I mean? So they're looking for that quality now. So you can't get by not mixing, you know, not mastering not using quality sounds, you know what I mean? So it's like, no, the production value has definitely gone up. And I think it's going to continue to go up and increase. Because, you know, there, a lot of times, they're replacing big records. So you know, you want to be able to compete, at least sonically, and lyrically to be honest with you, man, because there shouldn't be, there shouldn't be a difference in quality. Like, you should always be striving to create the best music possible, whether it's for sync, whether it's for an artist, whether it's major indie art is like it shouldn't matter. I had

Mike Meiers 11:37
that just that line, that sync isn't a trash and it's true, because it's like, you're right. Some songs are sitting in your harddrive should be pitched. And there are some that like, I don't know, I have hard drives that are full of songs that were okay that I have not I realized they were my practice, I guess like they weren't bad, but like, there were some there were some pieces missing. And now that I look at it, I can I have to gauge is it worth diving back in and fixing or? And this is another thing that I see a lot of people holding on one particular song, too tight fisted like, no, no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back and fix it. I'm like, okay, even if you do, it's still terrible. It's, it doesn't and I don't mean that in like a heart heartless way. It's just like, it was a song. And its purpose was to get you to a level to write another song that will be better.

Anthony Clint Jr. 12:31
Yes, I agree. When I got started with Viagra, one of one of my first st deals the he was kind of like a music supervisor slash publisher. And he kind of put me up on game and was just like, yeah, because I sent him. I sent him a bunch of old like r&b tracks. And you know, I was just like, you know, I just want to get all of these on TV. So I loaded him up with, you know, a handful of tracks and he was giving me notes like all of these number one, they're too long, because they were originally made for artists, they had bridges. I mean, elaborate bridges, bro, like, key changes and everything, man. So he told me he was just like, it doesn't need to be this long. Cut them down to you know, a minute and a half to two minutes. You can't have fade outs. I was the king of album fade outs on my track. So I had to put stain endings on there. And then yeah, man, like some stuff. When you look back, you just like isn't even worth going back and fixing and remastering and sometimes you pull up those old sessions and sounds aren't there. It's just like, just create something new you can make, you can make another song

Mike Meiers 13:40
because the time that you'll spend trying, there is also the student when my band used to record. He was like this old like rookie, you know, you could tell he did a little bit of drugs during his time. And so he was kind of he would always turn banning is Brother, you can't polish a turd. And then he would lean back, and then he'd go back to do whatever. And I still think about that where it's like, yeah, you've gained all this new skill and knowledge. But if you spent it trying to build up something that honestly just, it's not going to be worth it, you're going to as opposed to building something from scratch, we'll probably take half the time, it will be way better with all this new knowledge. It's going to be amazing. Don't worry about those old songs. And you're right because, you know, sometimes they're too young to elaborate peerages. One thing I see a lot and people are is like, Can my tempo change? And I'm like, can you probably don't want it to have too many, like, you know, jump and I think it's just like, they mean a rhythm change, like there should be said and I'm like, cool, like, you can just then use the counts in between the 123 and four doesn't have to jump to 160 and then jump back to like, these very odd like weird times all over the place.

Anthony Clint Jr. 14:54
Yeah. Yeah, I think that would, especially in sync. I think that would like mess up the flow of things because usually when they're using it, it's like, you know, they can't they kind of looking for certain tempo. So, yeah, that's funny. I've never done that. Yeah,

Mike Meiers 15:08
neither have I tried to think about it was like, when was the last time I changed the tempo? And it was like, oh, it's interesting that you mentioned some of these things to like fade outs, I hear a lot of fades out fade outs, and I'm like, Nope, no fade outs. It's like no fog machine. It's like the music fog machine where it's like, you slip the song slowly disappears. It's like, no, no, no, don't do it. Just to have a nice, have a clean ending. So we can just be like, ah, that's where it ends. Yeah. Now, the one thing you mentioned on the front end, which I thought was interesting. And I wonder if you run into this, where you are providing you provide lots of resources and knowledge. So when someone says, Cool, I want to do this, you know, pretty soon because I really want to dive in this world. And you're like, Absolutely, you can make a living. Here you go, here you go. And then they drag their heels a little bit. And they drag their heels, and they drag their heels, and they dry. And they're just like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get to it. But they never really get to it, even though you're providing the knowledge and the resources. You know, what you think? If we revert a little bit, what do you think stops someone from actually, like, even when they have the resources, they got someone like you, and then they're just like, I'm gonna think about is it stubbornness? Is it ego? Is it? What is it?

Anthony Clint Jr. 16:22
They're thinking about it? That's what it is. Think about it, man, you just got to do it. And I know, like, I know, I come across producers who are like that, but to this day, like they're dragging their feet, it's like, and I and I've told them, like you have the talent, I think some of it is you get in your own head, you know, you don't know if, if your music is ready, you don't know if it's good enough, you don't, I would say you don't know the steps to take, but we give them that you know, so you know, it's getting out of your own way. And having a belief that you can actually do it and your music deserves to be placed and is good enough to be placed. You just have to, you have to take those first steps. And some people, they want to have all the steps figured out upfront before they start like they want step seven, figure it out before they even took step one. So it's just like, Yo, just take step one, bro, like, since day one, just step one. And then that step, you will learn so much that it's going to be easier to go to step two, and then step three, next thing you know it your step 11, whatever, whatever step 11. Is, and it just starts with that one step man. You can't overthink it. You can't overthink it.

Mike Meiers 17:38
Do you think it's because people are used to maybe it's because we're raised, you know, we go to school. And we're told like it's this grade. And then you go into this grade, and you're gonna learn this. And then you go this and this and this. And so they're given this very systematic approach of like, ah, and then suddenly this like, music like, there's nothing What, what's what's, what's the graduation point? And when, you know, I've learned everything does that mean? I'll get my six figure placement? I'm like, no, no, no.

Anthony Clint Jr. 18:06
Yeah, man, like it's a. It's one of those things where I feel like I was talking to another thing, buddy. And it was just like, Yo, like, you really have to fall in love with just the process of working in sync. And I think when you do that, and you you don't necessarily focus too much on like, when is this going to get used? Is this going to be on TV this weekend? I think when you kind of forget about that. You start to fall in love with just the process of creating for sync, creating stems writing a song that is is wide and can be used for different situations. And then you just fall in love with the process so much you look up and then all of a sudden things are starting to work for you. And I think that's been that's been huge for me, man. Just creating, submitting and then forgetting.

Mike Meiers 18:57
Yeah, just enjoy. But that to me, If you love something and you enjoy the process, you'll spend time refining it to Yeah, you don't refine things that you don't enjoy. You'll like you know, it's interesting, and you also aren't patient with things that you enjoy, you know, when you hate something or you move it to the side, that's good enough. And you know, yeah, but the vocals are at doesn't matter. It's fine. It's and then you start doing those blanket statements it does, and it starts to become sloppy. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, that to me right there. You have to love it because I know, when I first started, I had to love it because I was not going to make money for the first three. It was gonna be a little bit of like, investing in gear training, coaching programs to really up my skills with very like, you know, very little return on investment. But knowing like, that's probably not going to be another like three years until maybe I get a bite. And the bite is probably going to be like the lowest hanging fruit. Like it's gonna be like, and it was it was like Teen Mom. And it was like, Oh, wow, between three of us, we're splitting this 500. But it was like the most satisfying like, I don't know what 200 Or not even that like 100 something dollars of being like, okay, so I got got a fourth of this Apollo twin was bought with this. So there we go. But it was satisfying to know, like a hot so it can happen and that that placement was just enough to hang on. Yeah, and go a little further. And I think you said something about the belief in yourself. Do you think it's true? You have to? You can't? I don't want to say you can't doubt but you have to have a strong belief that it's possible. And you can't have like this wavering like? Well, we'll see what happens.

Anthony Clint Jr. 20:56
Yeah, yeah, I think you you do, you do have to believe like, it's possible. Because if you go into it skeptical, I see producers, they go into it, they're like, I don't really know if this could work. So I'm gonna submit three tracks. Let's see if those get placed first. And then I'll then I'll create some more. And then you lose so much momentum when you do that. And then say one of those three tracks actually does get placed. And then three years later, you realize, oh, it does work. So now, these whole three years, you could have created a catalogue of music that could have been generating royalties for you and upfront sync fees. But you waited that whole time. So now you're kind of starting over. And you may have to wait another three years just to get that momentum back. You know, it's

Mike Meiers 21:46
you know, it's interesting, because that's almost like people think it's plateauing. It's not even plateauing. It's actually regression where it's like, you'll actually have to spend more time going back to where you were when you submitted that because you've so much has changed. And I think, you know, the one thing I'm always big on is like active listening, active listening, you have to listen, you have to listen, you have to listen, people are like, well, you know, do you have you know, I have this and then they named some sort of style and genre, which isn't awful, but it's like, I don't see that placed as much. So it's not saying it couldn't get placed. But if you're saying this retro fusion, Jazz Blues banjo combo, yeah. Could there be a show that needs it? Yes, yeah. Yeah, but that's like, one show. One. If you're looking long term, you've you're gonna have to expand your palate just a little bit. And listen, and is it because I don't know why people are, like, hesitant on listening. Like, that's another thing I see. People sometimes dig their heels in like, No, I shall not and I'm like, Oh my lord. Just turn on and listen, just listen. What's wrong?

Anthony Clint Jr. 22:56
That's it. I have I have a real in my drafts right now. It was it was taught. And I haven't written out like the caption of it. But it's a it's a it was like an audio and pretty much it was just a guy saying you shut up, shut up and you shut up some more or something like that. And I was thinking I was like, this applies to so many situations, especially when you're trying to learn like a new skill or, you know, learn how to do something that you've never done. The best thing you could do is just shut up and listen, man, I agree 100%

Mike Meiers 23:36
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And I don't know if maybe it's songwriters are worried they're going to copyright or producers are worried that it's going to be some sort of infringement. Because I'm always like, you know, when people say, hey, what do you think of my song? And I'm like, Cool. What's your production reference? I don't have one. Okay, I don't know how to measure it then because it's just like, What? What am I doing? What are the because the rules of every genre are so different, and especially for licensing when they're like, hey, I want something like 2015, Coldplay? I better not be giving them 2000 Yellow Coldplay, which is so organic, and not very synth, like and synth bass and electronic. It's just their worlds different. So it's like, there's a completely different system of measuring. And I feel people that maybe have that resistance. Oh, yeah. Because that was one of the questions how much or do production references matter? And I'm like, yeah, they do. They do.

Anthony Clint Jr. 25:49
Matter of law. I mean, it's, it's not a you know what to do. Tell me if you feel this way that kind of like, people want things in sync to be more complicated than they are like, it's not I'm not saying sync is easy. Yeah. But it's simple. Like, you get a brief, it tells you exactly what they want length, tempo, style, they give you references. They, you know, tell you if there's something some money up front, if it's just back in, they tell you everything you need to know, all you got to do is listen to the references create something original, that similar and has a similar vibe to the reference, like they give you the blueprint.

Mike Meiers 26:29
They're telling you exactly what they need.

Anthony Clint Jr. 26:32
Yeah. Because I feel like people want it to be more complicated.

Mike Meiers 26:35
The I think they do want it to be more complicated. And they also want to hear like the thing that they've had hidden away is the thing they really want. They don't want this, they want my, this special part of me because I think they're so tied to the song and they're so emotionally. You know, even their, you know, if their genre isn't that sinkable all the time or it's not as requested. They think like, well, there must be something wrong with me. No, it's It's, it's an okay, genre. You just have to expand a little bit more. But I do think it is not that complicated. You got to put the work in, I completely agree. But like it is where they're like, here's the reference we want. Here are the three examples. Here's the BPM, here's the scene that's probably going to be used, here's what we don't want. And here's the money that could possibly, it's like, okay, I'm very good. And to me the accessibility of things like eyespot TV tune, fine. You can go to Warner Chappell Production Music universal, extremely, you can go to all these BMG Music, you can listen to all these things that have tons of albums that are already uploaded, there have been vetted that have been, you have a blueprint? Yep. It's whether you choose to put in the time to start assembling it. Or if you go, you start saying things like, well, maybe the phrases like oversaturated it's not work is almost kind of a cop out for putting in the work of just not wanting to, or it's like, I don't like that answer. So here's a made up answer and a system of crazy, like, things that aren't true, but I'm going to choose to believe them because it makes me feel better about not putting in the work.

Anthony Clint Jr. 28:15
Yeah, man, I think that's it, you know, because, you know, when it comes down to it, man, there's, there's only there's only a few reasons why you can't get your music placed, you know, either. It's not what they're looking for. But, you know, timing could be bad, it's just, you know, you're submitting Christmas music and in December when everybody's already picked out in place the Christmas music, or it could be you still have to work on your craft, your production, your songwriting, it may not be where it needs to be in order for a publisher to say yes to it and pull the trigger on it. Or it could just be that you're not matching with the right publishers based on the genre that you produce. So it's really only a few reasons man that you really have to be honest with yourself and say which one of these reasons are the reason is the reason why I'm not you know, making any any ground and then work to improve that area. And that's the work man that's, that's the work that people a lot of people don't want to do.

Mike Meiers 29:20
But that's so good, because that's like, that has to be a real moment with yourself. And maybe that's an ego thing of just like, cool. Am I okay with this? Am I willing to push it aside and be like, totally make sense? Or am I like, they don't know. You know, it's just like, I'm just gonna wait here until somebody knocks on the door and goes, see here kid this is what we've been looking for. Come on, but you know that sort of like it's like that's not how it happens. If you're silent and you're not willing to put the ego aside and do the work. Then your your music career kind of gathers dust.

Anthony Clint Jr. 29:53
Yeah, man. I had to I had to do that to myself, Man. Because like when I first learned about sing I think and I was trying to break into it. Some of my favorite genres like neo soul, jazz, r&b music, like the the slow kind, not that like, the up tempo stuff, man, like I could create ballads all day, man, I love it. So I was trying to break into sync with that, like r&b ballads. But like, they're not asking for this stuff. So it, it took me like seven years of bumping my head trying to figure out, okay, this is what they actually want, I have to do some things and, you know, explore some genres that I may not necessarily love to produce every single day. But to get my foot in the door, I have to realize like, I'm in a service based business, and I have to serve based on the needs of the client. And when that switch happened, that's when everything started to take off.

Mike Meiers 30:54
I'm just like nodding. And because it's an maybe that's the other switch is like, people go, Oh, I don't want to think of it as a business. Well, you have to you better think of it. As you said, it's a service based in you know, business, which is true. So we are serving, we are serving supervisors, music editors, they're looking for a particular vibe that is going to complement a scene, either it's going to work for it, or it's going to work against it, the ones that work against it, never get used, the ones that work for it. Those are the ones that work. Like if, if we were in any other industry, this totally makes sense. If you and I were going to like open up a restaurant, we wouldn't just build a building somewhere, and then have it set, order a whole bunch of stuff and be like, cool, what type of restaurant Do you want to create? No, we would do the research on areas and what are price points? And what are the best locations? What is what is the area already have too much of what are they don't have enough of? What's the culture there? What are all those things affect whether it's going to succeed or fail? Yep. So why when we?

Anthony Clint Jr. 31:58
We don't we don't do that. In music. We're just like, No, this is our passion. It's what we love. It's creative. So you just take it

Mike Meiers 32:07
just like any people, and then they just take it and it's just like, oh, that's just awful. Because nobody would do it. It's imagine restaurants like this is what we make. This is how we do it, take it and it's like, but I'm allergic to this doesn't matter. You'll grow a tolerance to it. We wouldn't do that. But it's so it is so interesting. But I think what you described to like for you, the genre is you are into your pitching. I was heavy coming out of like a pop punk band doing nothing. But like, I remember somebody, somebody responded. And they were like, we don't mind the instrumentals, but your music sad. And we're just like, oh, man, and it was just like, ah, but and I resisted for so long, are listening to quote unquote, like top 40 I guess kind of like, like, things that are pleasing because it was like, it's easy to write a blanket like, Oh, these, like, you know, money's cool. But it was just, there is no, you know, real reason behind. But once I started to look at it, I was like, this is actually really good. I actually loved it more and more. And then here we are in 2023. And then yeah, pop punk gets asked for now as he like, you know, things like machine gun, Kelly ask. And I'm like, Oh, I got it. So it comes back around. It's I can have my moment to bask in that. But at the same time, I expanded into so many other skills and so many other areas purely because I was willing to just like, cool. This is what they're looking for. I'll take the time to like, actually, listen, if I want to do it, because what's the alternative? working a job, I don't like working a job that you know, that sets another set, because they're doing the same thing. You work for someone that has a set of standards that say do this, do this, do this, and we go okay, but somehow when it comes to music, we're like, no, no, no, no.

Anthony Clint Jr. 33:51
Yes, yes. I literally had this exact same conversation with someone and it was just like, you already said it, man, you just you said it, like, people will work a job that they hate. But then don't want to do something that maybe, you know, maybe you have to mix some records for somebody just in between syncs and checks and things like that, you may have to do other things using the skills that you have. That may not be like the primary thing you want to do, but it's doing something that you love, like would you rather do that? Or would you rather be at a place for 810 12 hours that you despise? And I'm not saying everybody's situation like that, but you know, some people, some people hate their jobs. Some people don't, but I

Mike Meiers 34:41
forget, I think it was a Gallup poll, and I have to pull up the statistic. I think it was over 60% so they hate what they do for a living. I'm like 60% so are, you know, the average human lifespan is like, you know, while we're increasing now, so we go past like, you know, into the 80s. So it's like okay, but like to think the majority When they go, like, just wait till you retire and you can start enjoying your life, man, that's really depressing. I'd rather start enjoying it now, and doing something that maybe I get to, you know, occasionally I don't want to necessarily listen to all public domain Christmas songs and write up different versions. But then I'm like, Okay, I could be I worked at a carwash. Once I knew nothing about cars. I knew nothing. I was around chemicals and I would smell. Customers would yell, suddenly public domain Christmas songs don't seem that bad. Actually, they're not too bad. I don't mind hearing another Silent Night or creating another, all lengths I you know, whatever. How many verses there are in that thing?

Anthony Clint Jr. 35:40
Yeah, man.

Mike Meiers 35:41
I think it's, it's that if you're already working something you don't like, Would you be willing to learn some new things and some new skills that could potentially open you up to then long term have something that you love? And that was another question somebody asked is just like, is this a long term planning thing? And I love that wording, a long term planning? It absolutely is like, this is not. If you're starting out, this isn't a short term, kind of like, like, oh, yeah, yeah, there we go. I got it. It's like, this is being patient and staying with Oct. And I think maybe that's why it's not oversaturated. Because there's it kind of weeds out the people that are just like, ah, it didn't happen in two weeks. Okay, I'm out of here. And they leave. But the person that's there for like, four years, five years bettering their craft really being, you know, listening others talking to others connecting with others. Certainly, they, you know, it's one than another one another one another. And that's where it starts to, like, as you said, I can do this for a living and fine.

Anthony Clint Jr. 36:42
Yep. Nope. That's what separates the people who I think have been doing it for a while. And those who just kind of dip their toes in the water with it, man, because it is a long play man that you have to be patient, you know, and I think that another Miskin are some it's weird people. Like they asked me like, can you guarantee like, a safe? Like, if I learned this stuff was like, No, that was like, if anybody guarantees you a placement, like run, because that's weird, but it doesn't happen. You're right. It just it you don't there's no you don't know. You don't know, you create it, you send it out there, it may or may not ever gets inked. You have to be willing to take that risk.

Mike Meiers 37:27
I have gotten people that go like what's my return on? You know, how many will I get to? And I'm like, Yeah, you probably well, if you're looking for a definite like, Absolutely 100% I don't know which song? I don't know when? I don't know. But based on my experience and the experience of others that I know that have done this. They trusted that it would they more importantly, were bettering their skills along the way. They didn't stop at a plateau at a certain point. Nor even when they get to a level, that's pretty good. Do they allow themselves to plateau, but they keep on like seeking help and expanding their skills? Because they realize the new opportunities and the new things are just bigger. And they're going to require more skills, better skills. I think yeah, I think people want that monetary. Like, again, maybe it's because we're used to getting a paycheck at a normal job where even if we hate it, we get that security of like, Here's your check for today in rock, okay. And then suddenly this unknown thing of just like, when do I get my check? Oh, yeah, I, you know, for me teaching I you know, when I taught guitar lessons, I thought it was safe. But I realized, you know, what, it Abdun flowed, because sometimes people leave, so then my pay would go, would go up. And then the summer came, people went away, and went out. So it's just like, whatever that was already, even though I was just getting a physical check of just like, but it really was false security. So I might as well invest in something I love doing that I believe I can do that just just stay with it.

Anthony Clint Jr. 38:53
That's the fact man. And yeah, I mean, you know, jobs you can, you can get that instant gratification you get after, you know, the check is coming after two weeks or weekly if you're, you know, lucky to get paid weekly. But, you know, if you look 10 years after that, will you still be getting paid for all the hours you put in on that job, whereas music, okay, you may not get anything upfront immediately. But you can create something and then 10 years down the line, what you worked on at one time is still paying you so it's it's an investment man, it's like real estate dude, like, people who buy beat up properties and fix them up. They're not making their money, they're in debt. When they get that property like immediately they have to spend the money to fix it up and they gotta get a tenant in there or sell it and they gotta wait for all of that to happen closing and all of that stuff. So they're not seeing their money either. But over time, it pays back and it's an it's an asset. If they decide to keep it and you know, I kind of think of music The same way, man, I'm creating, you know, the piece of property that could pay me potentially, you know, far beyond even my life, you know.

Mike Meiers 40:08
And even on top of that, like when you're creating a piece of music, especially for licensing, you're creating multiple versions of that. It's like, it's like, here's the bungalow, here's the condo, here's the apartment. Here's the three story. here's the, here's the short story. Here's just the one room. Here's the studio. And it's just like, your one piece of music could potentially have 10 different versions, which automatically increase. You know, I remember mentioning to someone, they were like, Oh, you did 12 tracks. I was like, Well, yeah, I did 12 tracks, but it was actually, it's probably at least 80 tracks here that are because like, you know, this, this one had four versions, this one had six different versions. This one had, this one had six, this one. So it's just like, if you make, let's say, five instrumentals, and there's potential, like 10 Other versions of each one, you've gotten 50 tracks that are ready to go. Yep. Does that increase your chances? Yep, sure does. Because they're like, oh, there's so many different versions of this. This is fantastic.

Anthony Clint Jr. 41:05
And then they're all gonna pay the same amount of money for the use. They use a drum and bass or the full version of the full instrumental vocal, we'll probably get paid a little bit more but yeah, dude, like, it's, it's I don't know. I love it. Yeah, I

Mike Meiers 41:22
love it too. And that's when it's just when I see those, those misconceptions, I guess we're, you know, people out there, you know, saying like, you can get a placement now. And I'm just like, No, you can't. Or it's just like, oh, you could just take a deer take any song that you got and just throw it? No, you still have to treat it. You have to build your skills, you have to do the research you have to put the time in. But I think it goes back to the thing that you said is you have to love it. If you do not love it, it will seem awful. It will seem like the worst thing ever. And it's just like that's what if somebody goes like, why don't enjoy this cool, then this might not have you ever had a surgeon come up to you and be like, Okay, so we're about to go into surgery, I should let you know. I really hate this job. Seriously. I am going to be on autopilot all the while. But you know, I think the hearts here and we're gonna do you know, I'll go in there. I got other people around me. So it's okay, these tools to these are the free ones that came with my job. So I'm figuring out. No, so it's just like, you're gonna have to upgrade your stuff to as you progress. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just it just boggles my mind. But I feel you're such a good wealth of knowledge in this industry. But you also don't sugarcoat it. Like, you're very good at providing the tools for people to be like, here, if you want to do this, let's do it. But also to you're not going to be like, here, you're amazing. You're the best. You're everything that you do is wonderful. You're willing to be like, Hey, here's some things you're gonna have to do if you want this to get the results that you want.

Anthony Clint Jr. 42:55
Yep, absolutely, man. Because someone Someone had to keep it honest with me, man, you can't grow without, without honest feedback. And then, you know, just let people know, like, the resources are out there. Like, you know, and a lot of people want to jump, they want to skip the work, they want to jump straight to well, what company do I send to All I need is the company. You know, my production is good. Like, it's like, I can give you companies all day. But if you don't know how, you know how the music should be presented, how to reach out to the companies, how to present yourself, how to, you know, write music, that's good for saying that you're still gonna get rejected, you're gonna be back at square one. Sand sink is a scam? Are

Mike Meiers 43:41
you gonna say yes. Because the scammer stupid companies, they don't know what they're missing. He's just like, I'm gonna start my own company, and it's gonna be amazing. I love my music, and I'll let him know. And it's like, Okay, go ahead. It's the same thing. Go ahead, start it. Well, I'll do it tomorrow, tomorrow. Well, you just watch. But it's the same thing. They think that the answer is this. But really, it's like, no, no, no, no. I think my friend I had my friend Michael Elsner, tell me he was like, sometimes people are like, Hey, how to do that. And he was like, listen, you're asking me, How do I go 70 miles an hour and switch gears in on this highway. We're really, we're still in the driveway. We got to learn how to back out the car first before we even get to that step, which is crazy. But dude, we could we could keep on going on and on about this. But I think these were some good minutes and just some things for people to realize like it is possible. But here's some things that might occur along the way and some things not to believe and where if you hear these phrases like it's oversight, it's not all it's really complicated. It's not if you're willing to put in the time to do this. It's totally worth it.

Anthony Clint Jr. 44:48
Yep. I agree, man. 100%

Mike Meiers 44:51
Dude, Thanks for Thanks for hanging out and talk. All different scenarios. Insane.

Anthony Clint Jr. 44:56
I know, man, ya know, it's always a good time, man. Thanks for having me. This was dope. The conversation

Mike Meiers 45:06
and that does it for this week's episode it was edited produced by Chris values I'm Mike Myers thanks for listening